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Post by cemilne on Dec 12, 2009 11:58:14 GMT -5
After reading The Declaration of Independence, my conclusion is that the Founding Fathers were a religeous bunch. And having read The Sparrowhawk series by Edward Cline (I know, it'a Novel. Novels are based on true events), lots of religeous people, though many didn't attend rch. Too busy making a Country I guess. May be Obama should have read up on Noah Webster before stating that we are not a Christian nation,for we surly were built upon Christianity and its concepts.We have been warned if we stray from our Christian foundation we will not survive as the great nation we have become and what we see happening today is a crystal ball of what's to come if we keep lowering our morals to make everyone feel good about themselves.  But in any case, technically, we are not a Christian nation, not by definition. We are a constitutional republic with a secular civil government. The idea of a nation being a "Christian Nation" or an "Islamic State" is an idea based on a government intertwined or directed by religion or religious tenets. True, our population is overwhelmingly Christian majority, but we are all equal under the law, whether we are animists, atheists, quakers, jews, muslims, hindus, baptists or catholics. That's not a "Christian nation". |
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Post by johng on Dec 12, 2009 16:23:40 GMT -5
I am not sure why one has to think that the "Intertwining of Government and Religion" necessarily is unique to USA? All government or dictatorial control is based upon a "Belief System" which is Religion.
In the end we will all find out where we stand. IMO one need only strive to do good and be good to end good.
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Post by Turk on Dec 13, 2009 15:01:15 GMT -5
Agnosticism is a principle. Atheism is a position a position to decline to believe. It is not a belief. I consider it the default position of all objects in the known universe. A rock has no religious beliefs. Neither do other creatures, as far as I can tell. You put a picture of Jesus in the kitty litter, and the kitty will do his business with no regards to defiling the Lord or blasphemy. A parrot will peck at a shiny Star of David hanging in her cage, and I have yet to see a camel bow of its own accord toward Mecca. The monkeys worshiped in India happily urinate in the shrine.
So they are without belief, as am I. It isn't for lack of looking and searching. I am cautious about my searches, treating all religions as equally valid, even the whacky ones like scientology. I don't think their claims that we are all reincarnated aliens is any weirder than the claims of God begetting a human child who came back from the dead in three days, or Moses parting the Red Sea, or Mohammed flying around on his horse. From position zero I can evaluate each claim of religion for truthfulness, using as objective a standard as I can muster, thus far my search has turned up empty.
I do unto others as I would have them do unto me not because I read it in the Bible, but because it is the least risky strategy to obtain what I want - which is not to be molested by others. If I steal from others, I am sanctioning an act I would not wish upon myself. If it is wrong for my things to be stolen, then it is by default wrong for me to steal from others.
If I am moral simply out of fear of God, or the rch, then I am not truly moral, I am craven. What would God base His morality upon? Or Goddess? Is it arbitrary? Does morality simply pop in God's mind for no good reason?
There is no society that has ever existed without any moral standards, and outside of outright invasion, the downfall of many societies seems to be a digression from their own moral standards. More importantly, some of the biggest moral taboos seem to be quite universal, incest, murder, stealing, rape, betrayal, lying, cheating, adultery, etc...
Native Americans didn't need the Christian God to point out these things were wrong, and figured it out on their own, so can I, so can anybody.
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Post by nikki on Dec 13, 2009 17:26:48 GMT -5
Agnosticism is a principle. Atheism is a position a position to decline to believe. It is not a belief. I consider it the default position of all objects in the known universe. A rock has no religious beliefs. Neither do other creatures, as far as I can tell. You put a picture of Jesus in the kitty litter, and the kitty will do his business with no regards to defiling the Lord or blasphemy. A parrot will peck at a shiny Star of David hanging in her cage, and I have yet to see a camel bow of its own accord toward Mecca. The monkeys worshiped in India happily urinate in the shrine. So they are without belief, as am I. It isn't for lack of looking and searching. I am cautious about my searches, treating all religions as equally valid, even the whacky ones like scientology. I don't think their claims that we are all reincarnated aliens is any weirder than the claims of God begetting a human child who came back from the dead in three days, or Moses parting the Red Sea, or Mohammed flying around on his horse. From position zero I can evaluate each claim of religion for truthfulness, using as objective a standard as I can muster, thus far my search has turned up empty. I do unto others as I would have them do unto me not because I read it in the Bible, but because it is the least risky strategy to obtain what I want - which is not to be molested by others. If I steal from others, I am sanctioning an act I would not wish upon myself. If it is wrong for my things to be stolen, then it is by default wrong for me to steal from others. If I am moral simply out of fear of God, or the rch, then I am not truly moral, I am craven. What would God base His morality upon? Or Goddess? Is it arbitrary? Does morality simply pop in God's mind for no good reason? There is no society that has ever existed without any moral standards, and outside of outright invasion, the downfall of many societies seems to be a digression from their own moral standards. More importantly, some of the biggest moral taboos seem to be quite universal, incest, murder, stealing, rape, betrayal, lying, cheating, adultery, etc... Native Americans didn't need the Christian God to point out these things were wrong, and figured it out on their own, so can I, so can anybody. Well, that's a tall order. It would certainly be a blessing if we were ALL advised at birth that we had better get it right this ONE time. I think you're right that Native Americans may not have needed a "Christian" God, but nontheless, they had "their" God, and they were not innocent in their tribal warfare. People who believe in reincarnation believe that you come back in different forms until you get it right. There is a part of me that likes that, rather that if you don't get it right the first time you are just kicked into a ditch. Ever heard of the term "old souls'? |
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Post by Turk on Dec 13, 2009 19:30:38 GMT -5
JD,
You underestimate animals. Animals have compassion and have capacity to love.
You don’t tell me what I must believe, I’ll believe what I desire. My post was not indented to make sense to you it makes sense to me and that’s all I have control over.
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Post by animal on Dec 13, 2009 22:57:20 GMT -5
To be totally honest, I just dont care how we all got here... I just know we are here. What we do with our lives is personal and we pay the price for whatever that is. And when its all over, we rot in the ground. Simple, eh?
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Post by jdredd on Dec 14, 2009 0:25:22 GMT -5
JD, You underestimate animals. Animals have compassion and have capacity to love. You don’t tell me what I must believe, I’ll believe what I desire. My post was not indented to make sense to you it makes sense to me and that’s all I have control over. You probably noticed I deleted my post because I was not happy with what I said. |
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Post by Turk on Dec 14, 2009 10:49:51 GMT -5
JD, You underestimate animals. Animals have compassion and have capacity to love. You don’t tell me what I must believe, I’ll believe what I desire. My post was not indented to make sense to you it makes sense to me and that’s all I have control over. You probably noticed I deleted my post because I was not happy with what I said. I did not notice and I could have responded better but I think Animal hit the nail on the head for me. I don’t know how the earth was created or how man got here and I don’t much care. My attempt simply was just to share a perspective not debate creation. |
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Post by jdredd on Dec 14, 2009 14:51:55 GMT -5
You probably noticed I deleted my post because I was not happy with what I said. I did not notice and I could have responded better but I think Animal hit the nail on the head for me. I don’t know how the earth was created or how man got here and I don’t much care. My attempt simply was just to share a perspective not debate creation. I actually deleted my post before I read your response, but I was attempting, poorly, to generate some debate, which I now realize was not what you were interested in. I apologize. |
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Post by Turk on Dec 14, 2009 15:06:57 GMT -5
I did not notice and I could have responded better but I think Animal hit the nail on the head for me. I don’t know how the earth was created or how man got here and I don’t much care. My attempt simply was just to share a perspective not debate creation. I actually deleted my post before I read your response, but I was attempting, poorly, to generate some debate, which I now realize was not what you were interested in. I apologize. Debating was not the issue I over-reacted to your statement regarding what I had to believe. |
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Post by dolphie on Dec 14, 2009 17:00:27 GMT -5
Discussing belief systems is good for all of us.
Not only does it allow other lights through the windows - it strengthens our own belief systems.
I love the debates on these forums as for the most part we passionately believe and enjoy sharing.
I have learned much. I have also been additionally reassured/reaffirmed within my belief system.
This includes yet is not restricted to religion.
Turk - thank you for your definition of aetheism.
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Post by sistersarah on Dec 14, 2009 17:26:17 GMT -5
I go through boughts of religion, and in general believe in some greater power.
I just strongly disagree with government promoting, or endorsing any one particular religion above others.
that is what has kept us a great nation.
the day religion and politics get intertwigned is the day we all loose .
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Post by dolphie on Dec 14, 2009 17:38:36 GMT -5
I go through boughts of religion, and in general believe in some greater power. I just strongly disagree with government promoting, or endorsing any one particular religion above others. that is what has kept us a great nation. the day religion and politics get intertwigned is the day we all loose . That is not really accurate. This country has had strong judeo-christian roots since its inception. What the USA has been careful about is in not allowing the government to become a religious body - as had occurred in Islamic countries or during the era when the King was at odds with the Catholic rch over his divorce and thus created the rch of England or when the Catholic rch was invaded with Family members of the Monarchs into rch religious positions. We have religion woven throughout our very fabric. Many seals, etc, contain religious icons. The 10 commandments are the basis of the laws of our land. Christmas is widely practiced here. Easter is widely practiced here. Both involve extended time off from school and work. Our monies, etc, have In God we Trust and other religious verbiage. This does not mean that Buddhists are not welcome, or Taoists, or Native Americans or ... People are not persecuted for their belief systems... Well - they used to not be. The Christians are currently quite persecuted as other belief systems are allowed special privileges that Christians would not have asked for nor have they been allowed. |
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Post by sistersarah on Dec 14, 2009 18:21:04 GMT -5
I go through boughts of religion, and in general believe in some greater power. I just strongly disagree with government promoting, or endorsing any one particular religion above others. that is what has kept us a great nation. the day religion and politics get intertwigned is the day we all loose . That is not really accurate. This country has had strong judeo-christian roots since its inception. What the USA has been careful about is in not allowing the government to become a religious body - as had occurred in Islamic countries or during the era when the King was at odds with the Catholic rch over his divorce and thus created the rch of England or when the Catholic rch was invaded with Family members of the Monarchs into rch religious positions. We have religion woven throughout our very fabric. Many seals, etc, contain religious icons. The 10 commandments are the basis of the laws of our land. Christmas is widely practiced here. Easter is widely practiced here. Both involve extended time off from school and work. Our monies, etc, have In God we Trust and other religious verbiage. This does not mean that Buddhists are not welcome, or Taoists, or Native Americans or ... People are not persecuted for their belief systems... Well - they used to not be. The Christians are currently quite persecuted as other belief systems are allowed special privileges that Christians would not have asked for nor have they been allowed. seems like a slippery sloap to me. the government should have nothing to do with religion. Even though our country had it interwoven as you state, it should not go any further or else we could be headed like the other countries you described IMO. Government jobs do not recognize easter as a holliday, and there could be a case for the ACLU about christmas. from the history of the world, religion and government is always a recipe for tyrany and war if not kept in check. Im glad to see other religions grow in our country because we are the greatest country on earth by being a melting pot of cultures. I know this is a strong subject and dear to many, Im just keeping it in perspective when it comes to government. There are those in this country that have used religion for bad like the branch dividians, the rest have used it for good, but politics distorts and excludes people when mixed with religion. why is it so hard to keep the two seperate? the question of the ages. |
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Post by Turk on Dec 14, 2009 18:27:28 GMT -5
The fastest way to make America a Christian nation; make federal employees work on Christmas.  |
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