|
|
Post by johng on Dec 8, 2009 15:07:08 GMT -5
"When in Rome do as the Roman's do" or what Obama, Reid and Pelosi do!
|
|
|
|
Post by dj on Dec 9, 2009 1:27:19 GMT -5
May be Obama should have read up on Noah Webster before stating that we are not a Christian nation,for we surly were built upon Christianity and its concepts.We have been warned if we stray from our Christian foundation we will not survive as the great nation we have become and what we see happening today is a crystal ball of what's to come if we keep lowering our morals to make everyone feel good about themselves.  But in any case, technically, we are not a Christian nation, not by definition. We are a constitutional republic with a secular civil government. The idea of a nation being a "Christian Nation" or an "Islamic State" is an idea based on a government intertwined or directed by religion or religious tenets. True, our population is overwhelmingly Christian majority, but we are all equal under the law, whether we are animists, atheists, quakers, jews, muslims, hindus, baptists or catholics. That's not a "Christian nation". |
|
|
|
Post by Turk on Dec 9, 2009 13:23:08 GMT -5
May be Obama should have read up on Noah Webster before stating that we are not a Christian nation,for we surly were built upon Christianity and its concepts.We have been warned if we stray from our Christian foundation we will not survive as the great nation we have become and what we see happening today is a crystal ball of what's to come if we keep lowering our morals to make everyone feel good about themselves. But in any case, technically, we are not a Christian nation, not by definition. We are a constitutional republic with a secular civil government. The idea of a nation being a "Christian Nation" or an "Islamic State" is an idea based on a government intertwined or directed by religion or religious tenets. True, our population is overwhelmingly Christian majority, but we are all equal under the law, whether we are animists, atheists, quakers, jews, muslims, hindus, baptists or catholics. That's not a "Christian nation". Technically you are correct dj. However one can find “In God We Trust” most anywhere, it does not say which god, but the framers were by and large Christian, conclusion, God the father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son is what the framers had in mind. As an atheist I’m glad America is founded on Christian values rather than the values of the head-lopper religions. For my two cents America is a Christian Nation. Obama’s statement was out of line, the man could have said, “America as a Christian Nation is a Nation of ALL religions and forms of worship.” But I suspect that’s too much to ask of Obama. |
|
|
|
Post by dolphie on Dec 9, 2009 17:46:29 GMT -5
But in any case, technically, we are not a Christian nation, not by definition. We are a constitutional republic with a secular civil government. The idea of a nation being a "Christian Nation" or an "Islamic State" is an idea based on a government intertwined or directed by religion or religious tenets. True, our population is overwhelmingly Christian majority, but we are all equal under the law, whether we are animists, atheists, quakers, jews, muslims, hindus, baptists or catholics. That's not a "Christian nation". Technically you are correct dj. However one can find “In God We Trust” most anywhere, it does not say which god, but the framers were by and large Christian, conclusion, God the father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son is what the framers had in mind. As an atheist I’m glad America is founded on Christian values rather than the values of the head-lopper religions. For my two cents America is a Christian Nation. Obama’s statement was out of line, the man could have said, “America as a Christian Nation is a Nation of ALL religions and forms of worship.” But I suspect that’s too much to ask of Obama. Well said.   |
|
|
|
Post by dj on Dec 9, 2009 21:18:29 GMT -5
EYE-BLEEDER ALERT. APOLOGIES... But in any case, technically, we are not a Christian nation, not by definition. We are a constitutional republic with a secular civil government. Technically you are correct dj. However one can find “In God We Trust” most anywhere... Whether or not we have added the motto "In God We Trust" to every available surface in the U.S. doesn't actually change the wording and structure of the constitution of our republic. Meaning, the document says what it says. We are not a "Christian Nation". Yes, technically, I am right, I already know this.  But beyond that, there is a message in that reality which is legitimate to pass along to people who live in "religious" countries. When speaking to people who live in countries whose governments ARE ruled by religion, it IS important and proper to point out that our country is both technically and in practice NOT a country ruled by Christianity or run under a legal framework where non-Christians are treated any differently. We are governed by shared values, liberty, and just laws created by the people. For starters let's look at the whole of what Obama said: So, Turk, he pretty much DID say what you suggested he should have said. I would have added the word "just" or "strictly" for emphasis, like "not just a Christian nation, or only a Jewish nation, or strictly a Muslim nation..." but hey, he's paying someone else to write those speeches... He suggested, correctly and I believe properly, we are a country which does not treat it's citizens according to a religious bias. Our laws are not extensions of the beliefs of specific doctrines or sects or religious influence, but of general consensus on what is right for all regardless of their religion. AND by extension we deal with the nations of the world in such a way too. I think it's a stretch to conclude that the Holy Trinity is what the framers had in mind. Where they referred to God it was in terms of "Nature's God", "Creation's Author", etc. These were conspicuously and consciously non-sectarian. They used very purposeful turns of phrase; it was not an accident that they did not invoke Jesus or use Judeo language. One reason is that Jefferson himself did NOT believe Jesus was God. "God the Father, God the Holy Spirit and God the Son" was decidedly NOT part of his belief system. He believed in the philosophies of the teacher Jesus of Nazareth, and he was quite clear about this throughout his life. He even wrote a version of the New Testament which is referred to the Jefferson Bible. In his version, the philosophies of lifestyle and morality are emphasized and the suggestions of divinity are completely excised. He wrote quite often that the Laws of Nature ruled our lives and that the laws ostensibly revealed to rch leaders and clergy were a perversion and a fraud on the people. But in any case, those references to God or to Providence are in the Declaration of Independence, not the constitution. If we are to discuss whether this country is a "Christian Nation" or not, we might want to look at the actual founding document. I don't disagree that the vast majority of citizens and founders of our country were Christians. I simply disagree with any suggestion that they had even the slightest intent to inject their beliefs into the framework of the civil republic government which they created with the constitution. Was their background Christian? Yep. Were their values based on their Christian faith and upbringing? Yep. But aren't those main tenets also basically the same values in most any major religion or moral code in the world? Don't steal, don't kill, etc. All the same. Yep. What exactly the framers believed about God or Nature's Providence etc is beside the point because the document says what it says and the outlines for the structure of the US Government are what they are. WHY they chose to set it up as they did is ultimately irrelevant. The document is primary. Whether the authors were head-loppers or Christians wouldn't matter. If head-loppers wrote the exact constitution word for word you wouldn't call this a head-loppers nation. One thing that is clear about our constitution and our system of government is that the framework is decidedly civil and secular. We are a civil government whose authority is granted by the people. Not by a doctrine or a dogma or a religious authority. YES, we all know that societal moral frameworks shape the making of laws, however, it would be quite a twist to suggest for instance that the prohibition of murder is limited to Christianity, or that laws against stealing or arson are on the face of it only Judeo-Christian concepts. In other words, there is NOTHING in the entire constitution which suggests that the outline for the laws of our nation are biblical and not simply proper on the face of it. The constitution's references to religion merely speak of the peoples' freedom of conscience regarding it, and the governments restriction from meddling in it. There are no references to our laws' authority coming from a religion or religions or even from a higher power. All authority rests with the body of the country's citizens. |
|
|
|
Post by Turk on Dec 9, 2009 23:49:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the eye bleed dj. Sometimes when I read your posts, visions of 1984 fill the room. So dj….nope go back and look how I worded it different from your quote. We are close but not that close that I’d say you’re correct. You are preaching to the choir, however your point is not referencing my points, so I’ll take it as commentary a good one but a commentary no less. No stretch at all dj. Many framers beliefs’ were firmly with the Trinity and in their writings had no need to drill down for more detail. For the Christian one words sums up the Trinity. I’ve always liked Jefferson, I have lived my life under the “Laws of Nature.” There is a beating heart on the other side of the keyboard, that was damn funny dj. I suppose my statements are really questions for me. I understand your argument and I see your argument as one that would support Obama making the statement as I worded it. In Head-Loppers We Trust |
|
|
|
Post by nikki on Dec 10, 2009 0:32:13 GMT -5
I am not a particularly religious person; however, I am wondering when Obama, after sitting in Reverend Wright's rch for approximately 20 years, will find a new rch. Rumor has it that his "staff" is still on the hunt for something "suitable."
|
|
|
|
Post by Turk on Dec 10, 2009 1:18:45 GMT -5
I am not a particularly religious person; however, I am wondering when Obama, after sitting in Reverend Wright's rch for approximately 20 years, will find a new rch. Rumor has it that his "staff" is still on the hunt for something "suitable." Read the bible 35+ years ago but everything I know about religion is from watching the bible channels. It’s interesting to understand how other folks think. The WH should send some Obamamoney to Rev Wright so we could build his GD America rch on 1601 Pennsylvania Ave |
|
|
|
Post by johng on Dec 10, 2009 16:06:16 GMT -5
Actually Nikki we should check the building permits in DC. Obama may be building a new Minaret fit for his worship.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tired in CV on Dec 11, 2009 2:01:40 GMT -5
Actually Nikki we should check the building permits in DC. Obama may be building a new Minaret fit for his worship. That could be! ;D His lack of finding a rch in D.C. after almost a year seems a bit strange. Maybe he doesn't need the "Christian rch" any longer. He has been ELECTED now. No more need for the rch! I suppose once he is out of office, he will be confirmed as a convert to Islam, removing all doubts of his real religious beliefs. He will just claim that he was led "astray" by Rev. Wright and state that Christians like Wright are haters! Islam allows one to lie, cheat and perform a whole host of moral wrongs as long as they are performed against infidels or benefit Islam in some manner. Hmmmmm |
|
|
|
Post by Turk on Dec 11, 2009 12:11:56 GMT -5
The ultimate “It’s Bush’s Fault” you would think Ahmadinejad had been hanging with BHO Ahmadinejad Reportedly Claims U.S. is Blocking Return of Mankind's SaviorIranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claims the United States is attempting to thwart the return of mankind's savior, according to reports from Al Arabiya, a television news station based in Dubai. Ahmadinejad reportedly claims he has documented evidence that the U.S. is blocking the return of Mahdi , the Imam believed by Muslims to be the savior. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579640,00.html |
|
|
|
Post by johng on Dec 11, 2009 14:48:32 GMT -5
Interesting but not going to hold up anything - Obama has already taken the Chair!
|
|
|
|
Post by dj on Dec 11, 2009 23:54:54 GMT -5
Actually Nikki we should check the building permits in DC. Obama may be building a new Minaret fit for his worship. That could be! ;D His lack of finding a rch in D.C. after almost a year seems a bit strange. Maybe he doesn't need the "Christian rch" any longer. He has been ELECTED now. No more need for the rch! I suppose once he is out of office, he will be confirmed as a convert to Islam, removing all doubts of his real religious beliefs. He will just claim that he was led "astray" by Rev. Wright and state that Christians like Wright are haters! Islam allows one to lie, cheat and perform a whole host of moral wrongs as long as they are performed against infidels or benefit Islam in some manner. Hmmmmm I am glad you included a smiley because otherwise I just might have thought you were actually serious about all that.... |
|
|
|
Post by dj on Dec 11, 2009 23:57:49 GMT -5
The ultimate “It’s Bush’s Fault” you would think Ahmadinejad had been hanging with BHO Ahmadinejad Reportedly Claims U.S. is Blocking Return of Mankind's SaviorIranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claims the United States is attempting to thwart the return of mankind's savior, according to reports from Al Arabiya, a television news station based in Dubai. Ahmadinejad reportedly claims he has documented evidence that the U.S. is blocking the return of Mahdi , the Imam believed by Muslims to be the savior. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579640,00.html Interesting we can block the return of the savior to earth but we can't keep Tareq and Michaeli Salahi out of a White House dinner party. |
|
|
|
Post by EscapeHatch on Dec 12, 2009 8:38:30 GMT -5
The ultimate “It’s Bush’s Fault” you would think Ahmadinejad had been hanging with BHO Ahmadinejad Reportedly Claims U.S. is Blocking Return of Mankind's SaviorIranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claims the United States is attempting to thwart the return of mankind's savior, according to reports from Al Arabiya, a television news station based in Dubai. Ahmadinejad reportedly claims he has documented evidence that the U.S. is blocking the return of Mahdi , the Imam believed by Muslims to be the savior. www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579640,00.html Interesting we can block the return of the savior to earth but we can't keep Tareq and Michaeli Salahi out of a White House dinner party.  |
|
