Religion

[Turk]

Just a few of the dozens of clips available showing the peace loving Muslims celebrating the death of 3,000 Americans.

[Turk]

"Peaceful American mosque" could that be an oxymoron?

[Turk]

Yup those little kids sure look like radicals.

[jdredd]

www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/24/895800/-Murdoch-published-Imam-Raufs-book-on-Islam-and-America

"The fact that conservatives haven't blasted Murdoch's links to Imam Rauf demonstrates the insincerity of their attacks on Imam Rauf and American Muslims. As Gitlin argues (and should be obvious from the book's title), Imam Rauf's book is in fact a celebration of the U.S. Constitution, an embrace of religious freedom and pluralism, and an outright rejection of radical fundamentalism."

[EscapeHatch]

Aug 24, 2010 13:17:13 GMT -5 jdredd said:

www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/8/24/895800/-Murdoch-published-Imam-Raufs-book-on-Islam-and-America

"The fact that conservatives haven't blasted Murdoch's links to Imam Rauf demonstrates the insincerity of their attacks on Imam Rauf and American Muslims. As Gitlin argues (and should be obvious from the book's title), Imam Rauf's book is in fact a celebration of the U.S. Constitution, an embrace of religious freedom and pluralism, and an outright rejection of radical fundamentalism."

I would agree about your wonderment, JD, but, then, I couldn't see myself clear to condemn a courageous act by an Imam or the appreciation from Murdoch. I can't think of anyone that would, either.

[Turk]

The guy is a walking, talking piece of garbage. Does that help ya JD? No need to attack him, he does a good job all by himself.

[EscapeHatch]

Aug 24, 2010 0:43:45 GMT -5 dj said:

..
Hatch, I'm sure you know by now I don't consider you short-sighted, petty, or ignorant....

DJ, perhaps my opening was clumsy. I used your words to aim at another target. With laser-like accuracy, I missed the mark. I had hoped that my addressing the actual issues directly instead of throwing them in yours or anyone else's direction would have been seen as my main point.

And thanks, DJ. I have always appreciated our exchanges. Disagreements do not have to be disagreeable.

[dj]

Aug 24, 2010 12:23:02 GMT -5 Turk said:

"Peaceful American mosque" could that be an oxymoron?

Not at all!
Here's the problem. In this CNN piece we see a 20-year-old mosque in the heart of New York city where thousands of Muslims come to pray and where the Imam preaches peace and tolerance and disavows violence or terrorism. Also in this CNN piece we see about 7 radical nutballs on the sidewalk outside the gates of this mosque spewing hatred and supporting terrorism, attempting to recruit and radicalize the otherwise peacefull and harmless Muslims going in and out of the Mosque.

You take the 7 nutcakes on the sidewalk at face value as representative of Muslims, while the Imam and the worshippers praying in the mosque you imply are liars.

That's bassackwards, my friend, and it is the root of the misunderstandings we see surrounding this issue. You are refusing to accept that all but the whackjobs are sincere and peaceful, and imply there is no such thing as "Peaceful American Mosque." There are over 2000 mosques in the United States. Yet these 7 nutballs on the street outside screaming for America's destruction (and Obama is the devil apparently, in case you didn't hear them), are the people you CHOOSE to accept as the representatives of Islam in America. I'm not trying to change your mind because that is clearly impossible. I'm just pointing out that this is because you have shut your eyes to the reality of the issue.

Those other videos above of the muslims celebrating 9/11, are all on another continent. These are countries with portions of their populations wishing death upon us. We expect these kinds of celebrations. It is disengenuous to use the videos of those hatemongers on the streets of Gaza or Pakistan as representative of muslims worldwide, and particularly in America.

It is as disengenuous and wrongheaded as holding up those 7 radical freaks on the New York sidewalk as samples of American Islam. I've got roughly 5 million peaceful members of American communities as a counterweight to those 7 jacknuts you're pointing to in a CNN piece.

[lou]

Poor DJ has to rationalize his position regarding the Imam Rauf and the Mosque. It has become "just 7 nut jobs" and for this there must be no condemnation of Rauf and his Mosque! Yet this is the same Iman who can't quite conclude whether Hezbollah is a terrorist organization or not! Evil flourishes when good men do nothing! And so far the condemnation is deafening in its silence! Lost in the argument regarding this Mosque, is the fact that New Yorkers have NOT denied its building, just its location and, of course, our dear presy had to jump in and make matters worse! What a statesman!!!!!

[Turk]

DJ,

I lived in Muslims countries for 5 years, my eyes were opened long, long ago. What you are missing the so called peaceful Muslims around the world rejoiced after 9/11 not 7 but 100’s of thousands, nothing disingenuous about it and quietly many in this country did the same. For kicks notice how many America Muslims have an accent. What street do you think they came from?

From my personal experience Muslims (not all, I’m won’t even put a percentage on it) are the most violent people ever. You continue to view them with a western mind, it doesn’t work because western thinking is bassackwards. You’re going the wrong direction DJ and your mind is made up also, that’s okay by me. I base my statements on experience, I’ve seen disingenuous and it doesn’t start with me.

There are approximately 1,500 mosques in America.

[Turk]

Aug 24, 2010 16:29:28 GMT -5 dj said:

I'm just pointing out that this is because you have shut your eyes to the reality of the issue.

I’m not going to deny what I’ve seen for your wishful thinking.

[dj]

Aug 24, 2010 17:17:15 GMT -5 Turk said:

DJ,

I lived in Muslims countries for 5 years, my eyes were opened long, long ago. What you are missing the so called peaceful Muslims around the world rejoiced after 9/11 not 7 but 100’s of thousands, nothing disingenuous about it and quietly many in this country did the same. For kicks notice how many America Muslims have an accent. What street do you think they came from?

From my personal experience Muslims (not all, I’m won’t even put a percentage on it) are the most violent people ever. You continue to view them with a western mind, it doesn’t work because western thinking is bassackwards. You’re going the wrong direction DJ and your mind is made up also, that’s okay by me. I base my statements on experience, I’ve seen disingenuous and it doesn’t start with me.

There are approximately 1,500 mosques in America.

We're just continuing to talk past each other. Let me make sure you understand what I'm saying, and I'll let you know what I think it is I am hearing from you.

IN the United States, the vast majority (let's say well over 99%) of Muslims are peaceful, and want to simply live their lives. This is my claim. There is NO evidence that this is not the case. As I said, that video showed a New York mosque that has been here for 20 years and the Iman preaches peace and understanding. There have been people arrested for fomenting terror or jihad or plotting acts of violence. Almost exclusively they were turned in by other Muslims. The radical freakjobs in that video are the 5 to 7 loud crazy guys on the street outside, actually protesting the mosque they're standing in front of.

Also, IN the United States, less than half of the Muslims here are Arab. The rest are Americans, mostly black, either converts or 2nd and third generation from American converts.

So, my contention that you are broadbrushing American Muslims as radical, jihadist, etc, is a completely justified contention, at least in my view. There is ZERO support that any more than a vanishingly small number of Muslims in America are anti-west, anti-American, or in support of violence.

What I am hearing from you, is that worldwide, based on both your experience and from what you see in the media, Muslims in vast numbers celebrate our tragedies and are in support of anti-west jihadi movements. Is this correct?

My answer is that I agree there are great numbers, from hundreds of thousands to even millions, of Muslims throughout the world that wish us death and destruction, and support and even actively help, terrorists and terrorist organizations. OK? I agree the number is large.

I, however, am making a distinction between American Muslims and the Muslim world outside the west. You, it is my opinion, are overlaying what you know of the outside Muslim world, upon ALL Muslims including the United States Muslim population. I reiterate, and will continue to reiterate, that all evidence going back many many decades in this country, is that by and large Muslims in America are distinctly non-violent and do not support jihadi movements.

Furthermore, although we haven't discussed it here in this thread, I make a further distinction in the outside world between the vastly violent and jihadi Muslims who are almost exclusively from ARAB countries, and the majority if the Muslim world outside of the Middle east, Persia, and Eurasian areas.

Only 20% of all Muslims worldwide are Arab. Most of the Muslim-majority countries are America-tolerant if not friendly, and there is little terrorist agitation coming from those areas, if any.

Even if we consider the absurd concept that every single Arab Muslim was anti-west, anti-America, and extremist jihadi, we would be looking at 20% of all Muslims worldwide. Indonesia, India, Turkey, and other countries with HUGE Muslim populations, produce very little Muslim extremism despite the fact that their populations far outweigh all the Arab populations combined.

In summary, I want it known that I do not minimize or dismiss the great and vast number of Anti-west, Anti-Christian, Anti-American, extremist jihadi Muslims throughout the world.

I still do believe that over the next 20-50 years the greatest threats of war, terror, and agitation, will come from extremist Islamic groups and countries.

Clear so far?

In the United States of America, we have a different Muslim population. We have Americans. We have 5 Million to 7 Million Muslims who - see this with your own eyes - have been living peacefully among the rest of us Christians, Jews, Buddists, Ba'hai, Agnostics, Atheists, Eastern Orthodox, etc, for GENERATIONS.

I see NOTHING dangerous or insulting about the mosque being planned in lower Manhattan. It is not because I am blind to the Islamic extremist threat throughout the world. It is because I am observant and I make a clear and precise distinction between the terrorists who attacked us, and the Muslims who live in America and practice a standard peaceful Islam.

[jdredd]

I wonder who is behind this orchestrated Hate Islam campaign and what their goals are? I can guess but eventually it will come out.

[dj]

Aug 24, 2010 16:44:35 GMT -5 lou said:

Poor DJ has to rationalize his position regarding the Imam Rauf and the Mosque. It has become "just 7 nut jobs" and for this there must be no condemnation of Rauf and his Mosque!

I was referencing the 7 nutjobs on the sidewalk in the CNN report Turk posted. I was contrasting it to the thousands of Muslims who have been attending the New York mosque in the same CNN report. Try to follow along, Lou.

Yet this is the same Iman who can't quite conclude whether Hezbollah is a terrorist organization or not!

That would be Hamas, not Hezbollah. And he didn't fail to conclude, he simply didn't want to comment.

Lost in the argument regarding this Mosque, is the fact that New Yorkers have NOT denied its building, just its location

Actually New Yorkers in the neighborhood, those who are making the decision, have also not denied its location. It is A-OK, and a go, to them. This would be the Jews, Christians, and Muslims of the area.

[animal]

I heard guys in NY talking about this today, building of the mosque..... no wallmarts allowed as with other stores and restraunts... yet this is allowed. They assumed political correctness and/or pandering, but I dont know. What I didnt know is that this same building was hit by the landing gear of one of the planes that hit the trade center, which technically makes it part of ground zero... thus why the uproar from the survivors and family.

I would fight it if I lived there, but from here in Arizona, we have our own problems.... arabs coming across the border with mexicans, and some of the mexicans are flipping to Islam.... imagine that.