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Post by peter on Mar 4, 2009 9:09:43 GMT -5
Hey everyone!
I opened my email today and saw that Rick had a new blog. I haven't read them in a while, but I decided to open this one.
So, memos were released from the Bush Administration that show that the Constitution was just a piece of paper to them, and that they could ignore those little things like the 1st and 4th amendments if they felt like it.
Rick's problem is not that here's black and white proof that the people who said Bush and Co. were trying to get around the Constitution, but that the memos were released, because it hurts our war effort?
Rick has gone off the rails, over a cliff.
"What DOES this the White House have to gain by releasing this information? We are in a time of WAR; these things were put in place to KEEP US SAFE."
Let's re-word this and see how ridiculous it sounds.
If the government decides that it's necessary, your rights guaranteed in the US Constitution can be ignored.
Well, at least they're not talking about spying on American citizens....oh wait...
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 4, 2009 11:40:25 GMT -5
Peter,
First, welcome back, don’t be a stranger.
What purpose did it serve to release the memos other than discredit the Bush administration? I hardly believe Holder’s statement of “transparency and openness.” Or was the release to potentially set someone up for future prosecution? Perhaps pay-back when Bush released memos documenting Clinton’s mishandling of Bin-Laden.
The memos created immediately after 911 had value however contained errors. The immediacy of subsequent memos (2002) was not there. The trick is to find the proper balance between national security and personal liberty, especially in times of war or crisis.
I don’t get Rick’s assertion the release embodies Islamofacists. Typical talk-show blabber you have to make something out of nothing.
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Post by bruce on Mar 4, 2009 16:50:15 GMT -5
Welcome back Peter,I recall you from Rick's blog.The memos need to be known as the American people should know what the Bush administration was up to,much of which was rather sketchy. Hopefully nothing of a nature that will put us in danger will be released. The latest field poll shows some interesting results.In July only 15% of Californians thought the country was on the right track.Today it's42%.Californians approve of Obamas job performance,65% to21%,in line with national figures.Dems approve by87%,independents by69%,and,of course theRepubs approve by30%. Another interesting story-Utah,the most conservative state,has the highest % of people going to porn sites!
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 4, 2009 16:56:50 GMT -5
Another interesting story-Utah,the most conservative state,has the highest % of people going to porn sites! Now that is funny.
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Post by Jack on Mar 4, 2009 17:34:36 GMT -5
Peter, Glad you're back with us. There have been lots of improvements to this board since you were last here. Plenty of new topics for discussion besides politics.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 4, 2009 18:02:53 GMT -5
I am not ready to comment on Bush's actions just yet.
I do want to remind people that Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus. Americans, (Japanese, Germans and Italians) were interned in camps by Roosevelt during WWII. These were ultimate suspensions of rights.
Mail was opened during various wars by various administrations, thus taking away the rights to privacy.
Constitutional rights have been suspended in times of crisis, real and perceived, throughout our history. In Bush's case, he had counsel as to his power to do so.
Obama is making an incalculable mistake in his approach to the memos. He is cutting his own throat preemptively for the time when he is faced with his own decisions mean tempering Constitutional rights against his Constitutional duty to protect the nation.
He will gain nothing by doing this, except in the hazed over eyes of his minions. He personally and administrations long into the future will have lost much more than he hopes to gain.
That's what we get for electing a man with so little life, political or leadership experience.
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Post by lou on Mar 4, 2009 19:40:18 GMT -5
Peter, since the individuals involved were not part of a military from a recognized country, exactly how were their rights infringed? As others have indicated, this country was attacked by an enemy that was both faceless and countryless. As Hatch stated: "That's what we get for electing a man with so little life, political or leadership experience." And unfortunately those men and women in the armed forces are now going to pay for the "political comeuppance" this admin had to make in order to satisfy the fringe elements of the dems (moveron.org, DailyKos, etc.). And hi!
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Post by bruce on Mar 4, 2009 21:28:57 GMT -5
Hatch,I have to laugh at a comparison between Lincoln,Roosevelt and now.Lincoln was involved in a civil war,pitting one part of the country against another in a bloody war on our own soil.WWII was against two major powers with connections in this country.The internment of the Japanese was totally wrong since they were mostly US citizens,but was in some ways understandable.Why weren't German-Americans and Italian-Americans interned?
The Bush administration was corrupt and no doubt did unlawful things,and perhaps some should be prosecuted.
No comments on the poll results?As I said,most on this blog are out of step with America and reality.The stock market was up 250 points,was the president responsible? He was when it goes down.Rather strange!
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 4, 2009 22:06:43 GMT -5
Hatch,I have to laugh at a comparison between Lincoln,Roosevelt and now.... Well, now, Bruce, there you go again- misundertaking my meaning. My intention was not to draw any comparison. It was to simply state that what we assume as being Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms have not been protected by all presidents at all times. I am staying away from claims against Bush because I have heard arguments that sounded reasonable. I am not sure I have heard enough to believe that they are grounded. I believe that 9/11, the 1993 WTC Tower attack and other events were acts of war waged on our soil, just as the attack on Pearl Harbor. You are right that most, around 60% in fact, of the ethnic Japanese interned were American citizens. So were the Italians and Germans that were interned. Yes, they were denied their freedoms,too. Just not in as large of numbers. Then again, it wasn't the descendants of their ancestors that attacked us. Of course, that was no more justified. Now, as to your claim that Bush was corrupt, please feel free to specify exactly how. I'm not asking you to tell me what he has been convicted of. That is a cheap cop out that you don't deserve. What I want to know is what specific laws or abrogation of Constitutional prohibitions that you think he has committed. As far as the polls, what can I say? You can fool all of the people some of the time... I think Obama made a good point: don't make a decision to panic based on one or two days in the markets. Wait for a few more days, then start sweating.
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Post by tpfkalarry on Mar 4, 2009 22:14:55 GMT -5
Hatch, The memos show a premeditated campaign to circumvent laws. That is real different than any of the historical references you provided. This was how they did it the whole time. You know what you want and you push and pull the rules in order to get it. You want to circumvent FISA, despite the fact that none of your subpeonas were denied, so you collude with justice in order to get some kind of cover. Later you testify that you were covered by a justice department memo that was in fact not rendered as part of a finding but written with the expressed purpose of avoiding later prosecution. That kind of goes right to the heart of why the laws were written in the first place. I think there are places where your ideology has to give way to the requirements of a free society. Mark my words when the whole thing comes out and the timeline of events and communications are examined you will be ashamed that these individuals represented your political party. These actions have undermined our freedoms and our security. This is Nixon all over again. It cannot be tolerated.
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 4, 2009 23:20:31 GMT -5
Larry, please explain premeditated, the majority of the memos were a result of 911. If there was anything premeditated it was the Clinton lack of responsibility. When and if it all comes out we will find Clinton negligent, Bush was at fault by retaining Tennant. Premeditated I think not. Bush with all his faults protected Clinton and did not disgrace a former president, something the current administration has yet to discover and maybe because of ideology incapable.
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Post by tpfkalarry on Mar 4, 2009 23:34:59 GMT -5
CM,
I think you need to go look for the memos or at least the summary's. These are memos mostly between Yoo and other Justice Department lawyers and members of the Bush administration. Little of this was even mentioned in the 911 report nor was it about anything military.
The justice department is supposed to advise administration officials about the legality of particular acts. They are not supposed to provide legal cover for acts that are known to be illegal. What the memos seem to indicate is that justice was a real partner in the campaign to create a sort of pardon in advance for individuals who were contemplating acts that they knew were in violation of the law. The justice department in effect ran cover for illegal activities.
I do not think you are any more relevant in your consideration of the events leading up to 911. Bush officials considered Clinton to be obsessed with Osama Bin Laden. Clarke among others tried all summer to get Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and others to take the threat of al-qaeda more seriously. This was the summer at Crawford if you remember. I do not have time to lay out the time line for you but maybe in the next week or two I can find the time. If I were a republican I would try to change the subject when these memos come up. When this all comes to light it will be very ugly I promise.
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Post by bruce on Mar 5, 2009 7:36:58 GMT -5
Bush's moves were if not criminal,unconstitutional.Jailing and torturing citizens indefinitely with out charges is a violation of 4th amendment rights.The firing of federal prosecuters for political reasons,and a political litmus test for hiring is another example.For a long time I was opposed to prosecuting anyone from the administration,but I'm beginning to change my mind.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 5, 2009 17:05:50 GMT -5
Bruce, Larry, et al, I am leaving the question about criminal charges against Bush alone for now. I am not sure I know enough to make a leap in either direction. I have read much and have much more studying to do. I do not want to take issue with or insult either of you with such a lack of knowledge.
What I do want to comment on is what is really meant by torture and what this has to do with anything? In what I read as a correct definition of "Enemy Combatants", the detainees in Gitmo simply are not entitled to POW status. See Supreme Court of the United States in Ex parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1, 37-38 (1942). This is also in accordance with the Third Geneva Convention.
I understand that many want to provide protections to the detainees and why. My stance, in re the detainees and no one here is: Fire Truck them. They deserve no Geneva Convention protections and they sure as hell deserve NO US Constitutional protections... yet. That will all be changed, of course, as soon as they are on US soil.
And I am not too concerned about world opinion. Such lofty and plain silly ideals has cause the deaths of hundreds of innocent people in France (since the '70's), Italy, Spain, England, Kenya, the Philippines, and Indonesia. France, as some may be surprised to learn has suffered longer and with more casualties than any other European country, all for some goofy notion that One Man's Terrorist is Another Man's Freedom fighter. Horse pucky!
Bruce, you commented about comparing internment in the United States of persons of certain ethnicities and ancestry. We did lock away American citizens of German ancestry. This was at the outset of a war against a county that itself locked away their own people. No, the comparison doesn't work and I do not mean to imply as such. I think it is petty partisanship to deny that certain parallels can not be drawn. The protection of the nation was the overriding motive in both cases.
Now, firing prosecutors is nothing. Has no one ever heard about Travelgate? I suspect not since no one cared enough to decry that! FBI records being compiled against political adversaries for the purpose of determining whom to purge from administration and common civil service? Come onnnnn!!!!
If crimimal charges or serious violations of constitutional rights stick to Bush after Obama's shameful public flogging before even a formal investigation, I will condemn Bush equally. Obama will not escape consequences of his childish antics, either.
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Post by bruce on Mar 5, 2009 18:26:25 GMT -5
Has anyone actually seen copies of the White House memos in question? I've read about them,but not read any of them.Maybe I'll google it.
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