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Post by jdredd on Aug 5, 2009 20:18:46 GMT -5
One of the stories conservatives mislead themselves with is that they are "strong" on defense and the Democrats are "weak". Well, this is a misreading of the actual situation for many reasons, one of which is what I have claimed for a while now: that the "strongest" military is of no use if not used wisely. For instance, Spain was the world's greatest power in 1588 when the Armada sailed against England. But poor strategy left the Armada in tatters and England as the new #1 power. The fact is shrewdness is much more important than numbers, and America's military has been being used stupidly for decades. What Democrats want is a military that gets a bigger bang for a lot less bucks...not one that is an endless ATM for Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and General Dynamics. Is that so bad?
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Post by johng on Aug 5, 2009 20:31:00 GMT -5
If I am following your logic then we should cease to develop new weapons and ships and wait until the enemy has both increased weaponry and tactics to recreate the Spainard failure?
Proper use of our military is without a doubt the best plan, however we need both a strategic deployment and deployable weapons designed to "limit the excursions" not prolong them due to insufficent tools. In short - The best and Smartest Defense is the Strongest Offense!
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Post by Tired in CV on Aug 5, 2009 21:22:50 GMT -5
There is no doubt about using your military "smartly" is good! Unfortunately, all political parties are at fault with the use of our military in foriegn countries. Politicians don't always listen to their military's advice either. You can thank our military leaders for the efficiency and expertese of our military with the tools given them. You can thank the politicians as to where they go! I agree that we should not be an endless ATM to any company. Those companies make other than military airplanes, sell to other governments and sell to our government. Needless to say, competition what it is, they do depend upon some "regular" purchases from our government to stay in business. If they close their doors, we will be dependent upon companies of a foriegn country for our military aircraft. I would rather the companies work together on projects for our military aircraft and stay in business rather than having a government take over like what happened to GMC! The politicians interferred with the war in Vietnam and put restrictions on how and where we could fight. Had they let the military commanders do their job, we would have kicked some butt and been home a lot sooner while having won the war. Instead, we ended up leaving an unfinished job! A lot of the same stuff took place in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have to commend a soldier who is willing to fight under the direction of our politicians after being taught how to fight by their commanders. I have a lot of respect for our soldiers, I can's say as much for our Congress when it comes to combat situations. Our politicians "micro manage" our wars rather than give the commanders a goal and leave them to it. That does not mean to violate laws in place and disgrace our allies.
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Post by dolphie on Aug 5, 2009 22:12:49 GMT -5
jdredd, I think the reason most conservatives think the Dems are weak in defense is because historically they are. As a qualifier: LBJ, Carter, Clinton = prime examples of allowing the military to fall apart. Underfunded, undersupplied, etc.
Clinton used the military for personal agendas/events. LBJ was a clueless wonder. Carter - cowardly and clueless.
A wise warrior is physically fit as well as mentally fit. They know strategy and know how to employ strategy to their best advantage. One can win a war without a single weapon being used - yet it takes the ultimate in strategy.
Politicians do not have this ability. This includes both the GOP and the Dems. The politicians - once they engage us in conflict - need to get out of the way and let the military do what it is best at: winning wars.
The mess in Iraq was a definite result of the Dems using the media to attack the Administration and the military. If we were not a nation that underwent the travesty of the returning Viet Nam military - we would have allowed the media to devil-ize the military. The Dems and MSM realized quickly that we would have none of that and backed off quickly - yet, they still sought ways to stir up messes where none existed. They played into the hands of the enemy - just to win an agenda.
The Viet Nam fiasco is too horrible to mention. We had the war won. We were coming home successful. Then the stupid politicians got in the way and our military (after laying their lives down for us) were spat upon and treated like dirt. I will never ever forgive the parties involved with that.
If the GOP was so great on defense - why was the southern USA border not protected as well as it should have been? Sell out politicians & President. Nepotism, cronyism. The businesses wanted cheap labor to exploit - so to heck with the security of our country.
re: strong military. If one has a good strategy but no one to place strategically - the strategy is not useful. If the correct weapons are not available for use in the strategy - the strategy is not useful.
Thus - skillful strategy and strong military = good defense.
Tired - You are the first one to mention a positive relative to government contracted companies. You make an excellent point. Not only do those companies know the hoops of the gov't, they are familiar with the product lines and how to improve. They are USA companies who are less inclined to sell our ingenuity and secrets. To train a company who has underbid a knowing contractor is to waste money and time.
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Post by jdredd on Aug 5, 2009 23:25:56 GMT -5
Can I retract something I said? I criticized Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc because I fell into an old lefty talking point (who, me?) which I think is no longer valid. In fact, I think we may have given them TOO LITTLE money. My point was supposed to be that the trillion dollars plus we've blown on the wars in Afghanistan & Iraq SHOULD have gone to hardware procurement to keep our industrial base going. We would be a LOT more secure now in my opinion, even if the tinpot dictator Saddam was still in power and the Taliban was still in Afganistan. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I could argue with you on the lessons of Vietnam, but I know we would disagree, and Gen X is tired of hearing us argue about it. I will say we never should have been there in the first place.
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Post by dolphie on Aug 5, 2009 23:53:37 GMT -5
Whether we should have been there or not is a different topic, jdredd. I am not sure I would debate that point. If I have my facts straight (it has been a long day with 3 hrs sleep so I might be a bit off) France pulled us into that war.
My point is this: Once in war - let the military handle it. NOT the politicians. Equally important - Respect and take care of our military. Those youngsters are placing their YOUNG lives on the line for ALL of us. They are amazing!
I do agree with the rest of what you said re: keeping the industrial base going and our military's hardware/etc in good shape, innovative and efficiently effective.
One good thing (if there is anything good in war) is that our military has learned new tactics and is streamlined again. I do not like the shoddy shape much of their equipment is in though (based upon talking to many who have been here supplying them and those in Iraq/elsewhere).
How about if we tar & feather the whole lot of politicians?
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Post by jdredd on Aug 6, 2009 0:04:24 GMT -5
I have to disagree on your point about Vietnam. Because we had no business being there, victory was irrelevant. What good is a victory in a war not worth fighting? And the stupid generals kept saying we were winning, yet every year they would ask for more soldiers, untill the American people had had enough.
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Post by johng on Aug 6, 2009 15:59:01 GMT -5
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Post by dolphie on Aug 6, 2009 16:25:25 GMT -5
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Post by johng on Aug 6, 2009 16:25:34 GMT -5
P.S. Keep your F...g Media photographers at home, I will send you all the pictures fit for you to see - Compliments of your fighting forces!
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Post by johng on Aug 6, 2009 17:36:50 GMT -5
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Post by dolphie on Aug 6, 2009 18:10:00 GMT -5
yet another great video. You are on an awesome roll today, JG Thank you!
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Post by johng on Aug 6, 2009 18:25:52 GMT -5
I am only doing what needs to be continuously done when someone puts up BS that makes us look like idiots for believing and protecting what we love in this country! I do not care what political affliation one devotes but I expect them all to remain devoted to Our Country - Our Flag - Our Service Personnel who fight to give them the freedom and liberty to spout off at the mouth whenever they please - or at least until their Liberal Progressive Air Heads in the WH and Congress destroy the very thing that gives them rights.
It just disgusts me to the limits of my patience and Lord knows I am such a patient one.
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Post by dolphie on Aug 6, 2009 18:41:56 GMT -5
I am only doing what needs to be continuously done when someone puts up BS that makes us look like idiots for believing and protecting what we love in this country! I do not care what political affliation one devotes but I expect them all to remain devoted to Our Country - Our Flag - Our Service Personnel who fight to give them the freedom and liberty to spout off at the mouth whenever they please - or at least until their Liberal Progressive Air Heads in the WH and Congress destroy the very thing that gives them rights. It just disgusts me to the limits of my patience and Lord knows I am such a patient one. The politicians are Party loyal and not Country Loyal. They hold a huge responsibility for creating the rifts within this country. Most of us LOVE our Country as she is. Unfortunately, like the woman who marries the man - knowing full well who he is and how he is - then sets about to change him into her version of what is a perfect man. By the time the conversion is accomplished - she realizes he is not the same man she married, she wonders what happened to the man she married, she is unhappy and they both move on. Thank you for reminding us - Johng. We need that - especially when we have other things drummed into our existence. The USA may undergo another unification - as we did with 09/11/2001.
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Post by jdredd on Aug 6, 2009 21:54:41 GMT -5
\"I agree with Dolphie that once our government has established a need for our brave fighting men/women to deploy - Get the F out of the Way- we are well trained and know what and how to do it!"
Can't agree here, jg. Servicemen take an oath to do what they are told by their civilian leaders as laid out in the Constitution. In other words, they go where we tell them when we tell them, and do what we tell them. If the American people dislike the results, or lack of results, then when we tell them to come home that's what they need to do without whining how they were "not allowed to finish the job".
Which is why MacArthur rightly got his ass canned.
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