CM
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Post by CM on Jan 10, 2009 22:34:14 GMT -5
Again, more lies, twisted information and name calling! THIS IS MY LAST POST! I AM REMOVING MY MYSELF FROM THIS BLOG! GOOD JOB you Adam Henry! ....and he did. retiredsocal former cop? Familiar lingo.
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Post by tpfkalarry on Jan 10, 2009 22:36:43 GMT -5
retired,
There used to be a poster who called himself AD. For whatever reason I pushed all of his buttons. I pushed some of them on purpose but others didn't require me to do anything special. He once attempted to rally other posters to find out who I am and where I worked. Out of concern for my school site I stopped posting for a while and when I returned I used a different name. In spite of all of the negative posts we traded I actually miss his opinion (not so much his opinion of me but his opinion on some of the issues). Your points about entitlements are valid. I do not agree with every criticism that conservatives have of entitlement programs but I certainly understand them. The answer to the problems is probably somewhere between the idea that all people want to earn a living and the idea that hand-outs never lead to hand ups. Having taken a number of breaks from posting in the past I understand when it seems that benefits of participation are outweighed by the costs. That feeling never lasts for me. I hope it doesn't last for you either.
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VOR
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VOR
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Post by VOR on Jan 10, 2009 22:41:41 GMT -5
Isn't it funny, this last election year a group of Republican Federated Women has a flyer printed in Riverside County that had a picture of Obama and a bucket of fried chicken and watermelon on it. When is the last time that a Democrat org. had a racist flyer printed? It just doesn't happen. Its the way things are today and I believe its terrible.
Tired couldn't defend himself against who he clearly is. Its one thing to say something and then not defend yourself like I did with Larry today. All someone needs is a few facts to back up their opinions and like the RR blog, Tired never had any facts behind his statements.
In his statement "That is not true! This last administration, including the Republican Party had departed from their long established platform" he didn't tell us how he came to this conclusion but stated it as if we all know him to be right. He clearly was wrong.
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CM
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Post by CM on Jan 10, 2009 22:49:02 GMT -5
Bruce, for what it’s worth at many California State Universities, faculty and staff join for lunch on Martin Luther King Day to honor Doctor King, lunch includes fried chicken, collards, catfish, red beans, rice, corn bread, and mashed potatoes. African American leaders in the respective communities attend. It is a celebration for a great leader.
I understand full well overhearing conversations just as you. I’m pretty thick-skinned, but I find it interesting how often my perceptions of certain people have changed. I now look at them differently and sad as a result.
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CM
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Post by CM on Jan 10, 2009 23:24:28 GMT -5
Interesting how this topic has gone. I’ve struggled with the hand-out, hand-up concept, to this degree. I make the following observation not in judgment but in fact and a lack of understanding.
I lived in Oxon Hill, Maryland and work in DC for the Justice Department while on active duty in the Marine Corps. During my three year assignment I witnessed the construction and subsequent occupying of a high rise apartment building. If memory serves the building was on Southern Avenue the line separating Maryland and Washington, DC, the building was named “The 500.”
The 500 was a beautiful brick building lushly landscaped for low to zero income families, the vast majority were black. In less than two years the building was condemned, not a blade of grass grew, not a window existed, not a door could be found, the beautiful brick was covered in splattered paint. A hand-out that went awry resulting in community bitterness.
I asked myself how could a large group of people (maybe 200 families) destroy that what was given. Were they not taught to respect property, were they angry, what caused them to behave in such a manner? The time period was the early to mid 70’s.
I can appreciate hand-out apprehension as a helping hand without the accompanying hand pointing to a better way. I remain mystified to the fate of The 500.
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VOR
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VOR
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Post by VOR on Jan 11, 2009 10:06:12 GMT -5
CM, as recently as 2001 I moved into a neighborhood in Murrieta CA, almost all white new homeowners with brand new homes. I visited this neighborhood recently and saw homes that in 7 years wasted away, that most had been foreclosed on, some remain empty and many in disrepair. I can remember them being built all from the ground up. As a matter of fact I had to camp out to get the lot I wanted.
These were homes bought by hard working white people. Now the neighborhoood is in disrepair and economic disaster.
Does this show America the quailty of these white home buyers? Does it represent a culture or class of people? Or does it reflect a sign of the times? Does it really represent what can happen to even the best of people enduring hard times.
In the 70's you remember another time of political and cultural upheavel. A time when the equaity of race was not as advanded as it was today. I grew up in Chicago during this time and watched the "projects" on the South Side of the city fall apart as multiple families were forced to overpopulate the units. Gangs and other groups fought for control and even the city police stayed away.
Is this a sign of a hand-out concept? Or a hand-up concept? What percentage living in either the homes or projects didn't work? Weren't good honest hard working Americans? Do you know, or are you falling into the same trap....stereotyping a group, just as you claim that I do.
If we don't hand-out, people would starve. People would take to the streets and live out in homeless conditions. They would start to take what they need and the conditions you see in movies like "Escape from New York" would occur in all the big cities.
For us Christians, we must follow the commands of our God and feed and care for those poor and helpless, the disabled and weak. Without this help, crime and sickness would start to rip this country apart. For the 25% they take in taxes, it is like the insurance you pay on your car. If you do become disabled or unemployed, or a family disaster occured it is disability and unemployment that you may need to make your house payments over an extended period of time just to stay in your home. The minorities of this country may not have had the same opportunities to succeed. I am sure that in the projects of Chicago the same schooling was not provided as I was on the weathly North Shore suburbs. I played sports on expansive parks while these kids played in concrete parking lots. I enjoyed private and public swimming pools while these people needed heat relief from opening fire hydrants.
What would you do to help them? Is it any different then the two white neighbors I have where the man is a self employed contractor and the women a mother of three. They don't get married becaus even though he makes a six figure salary, she is allowed to bring home a welfare check for 4. This is a common site in today's America. But the cheating is more common among people like my neighbors then it is for a black couple with little or no education trying to make it in a society that has unemployment at 7.5% and growing. To cut off any support, the man would find a way to get the food and heat his family needs and it may be from stealing your car. Be happy that there are programs in place, even hand outs so these people don't have to trun to drastic measures.
Instead of attacking the programs, I am for spending more money and policing the programs and finding the cheaters. Our government has stopped monitoring itself, reguating itself. If you want to save money, thats the first place to start.
Hand-out or hand-up? Are they not both helping us?
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CM
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Post by CM on Jan 11, 2009 11:27:54 GMT -5
VOR, I had never witnessed any like The 500 before even with my very modest and humbling beginnings. When I was younger we did not have much at times we had nothing, absolutely nothing. Today I’m fortunate that I’m able to help those in a similar position, a desperate position. From spring thru the fall I provide vegetables and fruit to the Murrieta/Temecula food bank, enough food that many families have dinner every night. On December 23, 2008 I was out distributing sweat shirts and socks to immigrants, I see people that are overwhelmed because someone helps them. Last Christmas 2007 I gave a man a hoodie I saw him again months later he had never worn his hoodie, I ask why, tears filled with eyes and he said it was the nicest gift he had ever received and he wanted to keep it forever. I’m not stereotyping anyone just pointing out that sometimes a gift is not enough, education and direction go hand and hand with the gift.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, words from the heart carry much weight.
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Post by jackoliver on Jan 11, 2009 12:00:20 GMT -5
VOR, I had never witnessed any like The 500 before even with my very modest and humbling beginnings. When I was younger we did not have much at times we had nothing, absolutely nothing. Today I’m fortunate that I’m able to help those in a similar position, a desperate position. From spring thru the fall I provide vegetables and fruit to the Murrieta/Temecula food bank, enough food that many families have dinner every night. On December 23, 2008 I was out distributing sweat shirts and socks to immigrants, I see people that are overwhelmed because someone helps them. Last Christmas 2007 I gave a man a hoodie I saw him again months later he had never worn his hoodie, I ask why, tears filled with eyes and he said it was the nicest gift he had ever received and he wanted to keep it forever. I’m not stereotyping anyone just pointing out that sometimes a gift is not enough, education and direction go hand and hand with the gift. I appreciate your thoughtful response, words from the heart carry much weight. CM, not to get between you and VOR's discussion, but I have a question? I agree education is the key for self reliance and success in our wonderful FREE America !!!! What can we do to help those that have no hope of education for what ever reason?
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Post by tpfkalarry on Jan 11, 2009 12:02:02 GMT -5
Reform?
I participate in a number of activities related to education reform. My students are already high performing so I feel funny thinking about the ongoing evaluation of the program we offer as a reform. But I also know that if I am not getting better at providing more, in this ever changing world, than I am probably getting better at providing less. I do not think it is possible any longer to just stay the same.
When NCLB was first passed a number of educators were dismayed at the task in front of them. According to that legislation we are required, in six or seven years, to have every student score in the advanced or proficient range (meaning essentially that every student will be able to attend a UC or state college upon high school graduation). Upon first read this seems impossible. I think it may be impossible given all the factors that effect students lives. But I have also come to believe that it doesn't matter if it is possible. If the students at my school continue to improve at the rate I have seen since NCLB we will come up about twenty five per cent short (gut estimate). I will be dissapointed. The choice (it is not really a choice sine we are talking about young peoples futures) would be to either fold up in the face of an impossible task or continue to create an environment of continuous improvement. Even failing to meet the NCLB requirements would still mean that four times as many of my students would be able to attend a four year college and do well. Hard to consider that a doomed effort.
The same approach needs to be applied to other entitlements. You can call it No Family Left Behind. The goals of the program should be to get people off of the rolls in a way that keeps them off. I don't think we kick them off but it means we have to be able to offer them a chance at something better. When I went to college I received the GI bill. Working part-time I was able to live well enough. But it was very hard to want to graduate when my starting salary was fifty or seventy five more a week. I should give up the lifestyle available at the University of Texas (number three that year on the Playboy party school poll) in order to work fifty or more hours a week for five bucks a day. The same is true for other entitlements. It is hard to convince someoen to go to work if the difference is hardly measurable. But entitlement programs should be subject to ongoing evaluation and have measurable and attainable goals. Welfare reform should not be a campaign slogan but part of the organizations mission.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 11, 2009 15:20:52 GMT -5
Good observation Larry,the difference between making only a few dollars more working than getting an entitlement for a few dollars less and without the stress of working.M y wife and I had this kind of predicament when it came to child care.The amount we paid childcare was real close to the amount my wife made at work.So ,it made the decision tough,whether my wife should work or not.She did work once she found something to make it worth her while to not stay home with our youngest.I suspect many find themselves in this situation.
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