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Post by Tired in CV on Jun 5, 2009 2:59:52 GMT -5
There was a big hassle with the City of Inglewood, who didn't think we should get overtime for "sitting around". The union argued successfully that we were on duty at the beck and call of the dispatcher, and the time "sitting around" was not our own time. That's called protecting the workers from managerial abuse. Without the union, it would have taken years to settle it. Well, you had a very nice managers if the "let" you "sit around" while waiting for the dispatcher to send you out somewhere. If you are getting paid to wait for the dispatcher, I would have had you cleaning up, organizing, preparing for the next job, etc. You would NOT be sitting around. In fact, it shows how motivated the workers were. I did not "sit around" waiting for the next job, I stayed constantly busy and gave my employer what he paid for. Somebody willing to work without having to be told! THAT IS WHAT UNIONS DO, MAKE EMPLOYERS PAY EMPLOYEES TO DO NOTHING!Great post Bruce! it proves unions are obsolete!
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Post by bruce on Jun 5, 2009 6:21:54 GMT -5
There was a big hassle with the City of Inglewood, who didn't think we should get overtime for "sitting around". The union argued successfully that we were on duty at the beck and call of the dispatcher, and the time "sitting around" was not our own time. That's called protecting the workers from managerial abuse. Without the union, it would have taken years to settle it. Well, you had a very nice managers if the "let" you "sit around" while waiting for the dispatcher to send you out somewhere. If you are getting paid to wait for the dispatcher, I would have had you cleaning up, organizing, preparing for the next job, etc. You would NOT be sitting around. In fact, it shows how motivated the workers were. I did not "sit around" waiting for the next job, I stayed constantly busy and gave my employer what he paid for. Somebody willing to work without having to be told! THAT IS WHAT UNIONS DO, MAKE EMPLOYERS PAY EMPLOYEES TO DO NOTHING!Great post Bruce! it proves unions are obsolete! Of course you completely missed the point. We were on duty, waiting for a call. The courts ruled in our favor, that we were at the" beck and call" of the fire department and we should be paid, like firemen or policemen. While cruising in their patrol cars, cops are being paid, even if there is no action for eight or ten hours. We were stuck at the station and couldn't leave. You think we shouldn't have been paid for the time we were on standby? Why do you think I put quotation marks around "sitting around"? You obviously have no idea of the job of EMT. We were always prepared to go in seconds. We did, in fact, clean and polish the trucks keep our area clean, exactly like firefighters. Because we were understaffed, we couldn't even go for food like the firefighters.
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Post by bruce on Jun 5, 2009 6:34:07 GMT -5
Unions can not protect "Illegal Workers" but the State of California can and does. They do have something in common however, the both need to be gone. Give the dispatcher the home phone number of the on call employees and send them home, overtime pay from the tax payers is not necessary to conduct such activity. Much of the work performed by "Union City and County Employees" should be done by the Welfare recepients who are being paid for doing nothing. I feel the same for those on unemployment benefits which could backfil much of the routine work being done at much higher expense. I realize I am a loonatic and I appreciate you allowing me the santity of this padded room... Send on call EMT's home? Yeah, right. If a call comes in, what would the response time be? Glad you're not the fire chief. It's amazing how little you all know about real life. Unemployment is insurance, paid for by the worker and employer. With the unemployed "working" for free, we're pretty close to involuntary servitude. Maybe social security recipients should have to work for free to earn their keep.
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Post by bruce on Jun 5, 2009 6:54:00 GMT -5
And you all made my point, that management tries to get something for nothing, and tries to squeeze the workers for the last drop of blood. Of course many businesses would love to have free labor available. If nothing else, unions, or the threat of unions, keeps management in line.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Jun 5, 2009 9:14:08 GMT -5
Bruce, I didn't catch the part that you were an EMT with Inglewood in your short story about being on call. Do I have this right now? Or were you a part of the station staff?
If you were required to remain on premises without pay, I could understand your point. Is that what happened? Was it the policy when you were hired?
There wasn't enough detail (for my pea sized brain) in your initial story. I am just trying to understand.
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Post by bruce on Jun 5, 2009 16:29:57 GMT -5
Bruce, I didn't catch the part that you were an EMT with Inglewood in your short story about being on call. Do I have this right now? Or were you a part of the station staff? If you were required to remain on premises without pay, I could understand your point. Is that what happened? Was it the policy when you were hired? There wasn't enough detail (for my pea sized brain) in your initial story. I am just trying to understand. I worked for the City of Inglewood from 1969 until 1982 as an EMT, Emergency Medical Technician. We were stationed at the main fire station , in a separate section from the firefighters. That was our base. In an emergency, whether fire, accident, medical emergency, shooting, etc, both the fire department and EMT's responded. Yes, for a 12 hour shift, we were required to be on standby at the fire station. We were paid for the full twelve hours; the city manager and some on the council felt that we should only be paid for 8 hours, and only receive "overtime" if we had to respond to a call. The union took it to court and it was ruled that we were entitled to pay for the entire 12 hour shift since we were required to be at the station when not out on a call. At the time, Inglewood was a city of around 75,000 but because of the presence of both the Forum and Hollywood Park (horse racing track) there was a lot of activity. It was about 70% black then; today it is about 80% hispanic.
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Post by Tired in CV on Jun 5, 2009 16:41:16 GMT -5
Of course you completely missed the point. We were on duty, waiting for a call. The courts ruled in our favor, that we were at the" beck and call" of the fire department and we should be paid, like firemen or policemen. While cruising in their patrol cars, cops are being paid, even if there is no action for eight or ten hours. We were stuck at the station and couldn't leave. You think we shouldn't have been paid for the time we were on standby? Why do you think I put quotation marks around "sitting around"? You obviously have no idea of the job of EMT. We were always prepared to go in seconds. We did, in fact, clean and polish the trucks keep our area clean, exactly like firefighters. Because we were understaffed, we couldn't even go for food like the firefighters. No, YOU missed the point, I would have paid you for being on standby, yet you would be busy. Whether it is physical preparation or mental (studying trade books, viewing training films, etc.). You would not be "sitting around" as many do playing cards, reading personal books, etc. I am NOT asking you to work for nothing (free), you would be paid for the time. When you are paid to be on duty, you are indebted to the employer to perform work. In some cases that may be as listed above. Your initial statement gave the impression that you were RECEIVING overtime pay for "sitting around". I am of agreement that you should be paid for time required to be in the station. That means some sort of work though, NOT just "sitting around" (your words). I agree with the court ruling. You wouldn't have needed a union to have won that case! But, since they were available, USE THEM! EMT's in San Diego used to be part of the police department and patrolled as police officers, in vans, until dispatched to a call requiring EMT's. Now, I believe, most EMT's are incorporated into the fire departments and may be required to fight fires unless other duties are required. Your explanation of a police officer on patrol is bogus as his patrol is being busy, watching, observing, monitoring traffic, etc. Those are his job. edited to correct quote box.
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Post by johng on Jun 5, 2009 17:26:19 GMT -5
And you all made my point, that management tries to get something for nothing, and tries to squeeze the workers for the last drop of blood. Of course many businesses would love to have free labor available. If nothing else, unions, or the threat of unions, keeps management in line. BRUCE, You started this with a totally disingenuous post regarding OT pay for sitting around and failure to tell us your job was that of an EMT! You baited and got what you should have gotton. If you are making a case for EMT personnel to be paid while on standby, which God bless us with all EMT time being standby, then there is no case here. It certainly does not support your argument when you bait and switch!
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Post by EscapeHatch on Jun 5, 2009 17:46:53 GMT -5
Thanks for fleshing out the story, Bruce. I wasn't looking to go down the road JohnG just took, but, you can understand that you put us on a detour. I just thought I missed something.
I can understand deserving to be paid the 12 hours while on the job. Being at the station house was being on the job. It wasn't clear before.
Did you guys try the Labor Board before litigation?
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Post by johng on Jun 5, 2009 18:07:27 GMT -5
I regret my "idiot moment" with that last post. Bruce I apologize and ask that you afford us the right of full disclosure when you do this.
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Post by bruce on Jun 5, 2009 18:18:20 GMT -5
I had mentioned numerous times in the past, but that was before some of you were even here and I can't really expect for anyone to remember what I did for work 25 years ago. Sorry for the confusion. No apologies needed. Sometime I'll tell about the accident that immediately end my career as an EMT. The EMT's here are apparently part of the fire depatment as both respond to calls from the building where I live.
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Post by johng on Jun 5, 2009 20:00:04 GMT -5
Bruce,
I did not know. Nevertheless it raises another question with me, How many here believe that the Public Services such as Fire, Police, EMT, City and County workers should be unionized to begin with? I for one think it is a disaster and is currently having a severe fiscal impact on all municipalities.
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Post by Tired in CV on Jun 6, 2009 1:22:45 GMT -5
Bruce, I did not know. Nevertheless it raises another question with me, How many here believe that the Public Services such as Fire, Police, EMT, City and County workers should be unionized to begin with? I for one think it is a disaster and is currently having a severe fiscal impact on all municipalities. I can agree with you on that! Ironically, a far majority of the Union workers work for government agencies (Federal, State, County, and City).
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Post by johng on Jun 6, 2009 12:24:04 GMT -5
Bruce, I can agree with you on that! Ironically, a far majority of the Union workers work for government agencies (Federal, State, County, and City). On further analysis may answer the Union Need question. The Government is not in business to make a profit and serve a customer, it is in business to strip profits in the form of taxes and redistribute that to what is supposed to be the benefit of all concerned. Government has never been very efficient nor will it become and much in large to the Union mentality that dictates the methods in delivery for government service. No private business could or would promote the behavior of such a labor force so they have to have the mass revenue base of Tax Payer donation to survive and thrive. IMO.
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Post by jdredd on Jun 7, 2009 0:23:44 GMT -5
And here I thought public workers were more unionized because they had a better "service to their fellow man" ethic than those who work for private industry.
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