CM
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Post by CM on Mar 9, 2009 23:24:27 GMT -5
The American dream was a foundation of ideals and hopes for any and every American individual. Specifically, one of the ideals was an American dream free of class distinction; that every person has the opportunity to be whoever they hope to be. In a sort of Cinderella-like fashion, it is in essence an ideal of social mobility and freedom. The social reality, however, is far crueler. Because of the harsh truth of social America, by way of its pretentiousness and decadence, is the American dream is lost. Is it lost, lost forever?
Foreclosures, collapsed market, bankruptcies, crime, drugs, gangs: is this what America has become?
Trillions is debt, unemployment on the rise, inflation around the corner. Is there a dream or only folly?
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Post by bruce on Mar 10, 2009 6:35:43 GMT -5
Like it or not,the American Dream may not be dead,but simply different.For years now,we have lagged in many important quality of life issues-infant mortality rate,test scores for school children,life expectancy,suicide rates,incarceration rates,etc.I was stunned a couple years ago to read that we were 17th in a study of overall living standards.We have the largest gap in income between the top 5% of earners and the bottom 20%.This is compared to the so-called developed countries. Now we are in a world wide recession.The world has changed greatly compared to our younger days.I for one would not want to be 18 at this stage. I suspect that this country 30 years from now will be very different the the country we knew.Not necessarily better or worse but different. What happens in Ohio affects those in London,Dakar,Mumbai,Sydney and Seoul. Shortly before my wife was killed in a traffic accident,she went to Manila to see relatives (she was part Filipina,part Korean). While boen here,she lived several years there and even in 1998 the influence of the rest of the world was being felt.Korea had always been quite insular.When she was there in her teens,there was little American influence in everyday life for those not involved with the US military.She was shocked to see a poster of Snoop Dog in a young relatives bedroom.
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Post by bruce on Mar 10, 2009 6:44:31 GMT -5
correction,she went to Seoul,not Manila.
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Post by daleescondido on Mar 10, 2009 19:24:09 GMT -5
Like it or not,the American Dream may not be dead,but simply different.For years now,we have lagged in many important quality of life issues-infant mortality rate,test scores for school children,life expectancy,suicide rates,incarceration rates,etc.I was stunned a couple years ago to read that we were 17th in a study of overall living standards.We have the largest gap in income between the top 5% of earners and the bottom 20%.This is compared to the so-called developed countries. Now we are in a world wide recession.The world has changed greatly compared to our younger days.I for one would not want to be 18 at this stage. I suspect that this country 30 years from now will be very different the the country we knew.Not necessarily better or worse but different. What happens in Ohio affects those in London,Dakar,Mumbai,Sydney and Seoul. Shortly before my wife was killed in a traffic accident,she went to Manila to see relatives (she was part Filipina,part Korean). While boen here,she lived several years there and even in 1998 the influence of the rest of the world was being felt.Korea had always been quite insular.When she was there in her teens,there was little American influence in everyday life for those not involved with the US military.She was shocked to see a poster of Snoop Dog in a young relatives bedroom.[/quot Sorry about your wife cant imagine that. The shift and lowering of our standard of living is moving into dangerous territory. Poverty is the breeding ground of terror and all that goes with it. We are a nation that believes we can own a house and a new car every couple years and were poor. I remember the brando movie the young lions from 58 and he was asked why he believed in hitler. He said because he made it possible for someone to better themselves in the new world. Nothing good come from poverty and we could be heading that way worldwide. ps I( am not comparing hitler to our admin just the point desperate people are easy to steer.
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Post by tpfkalarry on Mar 10, 2009 20:27:35 GMT -5
Relativity, There was a time, no more distant than my childhood, when there was no shame in being poor if you worked hard and at least provided for your family. I remember helping my mother take the radiator out of our station wagon (a rambler) so that we could take it in my wagon to a place that could repair it. This was so she could teach my older sister to drive so that she would have a ride to the hospital when my youngest brother was due. My father was off fighting in the war and we had no alternative. I don't remember being ashamed of my mother or father because we did not get everything we wanted.
There is a real difference between struggling to make ends meet and abject poverty. Sadly many Americans weary of the struggle so quickly. I think my parents pretty much struggled with it my entire childhood. But to their credit they fought the good fight. We learned early that if you could not afford it you either changed your expectations or you saved until you could afford it. We had hope and that made all the difference.
People talk about the re-distribution of wealth as if it is a socialist or communist manifestation. Throughout history and throughout the world wealth is re-distributed all the time. For certain tribes in South America wedding dowries provide the buld of wealth re-distribution. We are all quick to condemn peopl living on the government dole who collect a check but do not contribute any labor to earn it. Is that so different than the fourth generation wealthy that are born into it and whose only function is consumption. I think there is going to be re-distribution. I think the idea of radical re-distribution scares everyone. But if you think about it part of the American dream is peaceful re-distribution of wealth. Someone who is currently poor can through education and hard work acquire wealth from others.
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Post by daleescondido on Mar 11, 2009 4:42:29 GMT -5
I could duplicate your stories in my youth. Hand me down cloths, the same dinner on a particular nightevery week. My mother raised 4 boys on 52 dollars a week and we never stopped hearing it. But the hope that is america has changed and is not always attainable by doing the right thing anymore. Thats a big difference between the struggles in our youth and the struggles of todays youth. Maybe america has nothing left to give so we got to go after the fat cats? I am being sarcastic We do need some fiscal responsibility from leadership to return the dream , like thats going to happen.
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 11, 2009 11:14:58 GMT -5
Everything is relative or is it? In the 50’s 60’s and into the 70’s there was contentment. I’ve wondered many times what would happen if I were a young teenager coming to today’s America, would I’ve been able to accomplish the same.
The old timers that I’ve spoken with speak of rough times but almost without fail they would say “but everyone helped each other.” They spoke of close families and friends. My father would say Viet Nam changed America, the war divided the youth from their parent’s generation.
I’ve told my kids your first goal in life is to find happiness, and hope health is its companion. Next always hustle and get an education. Will that ensure the American Dream? I am not sure, but one thing for sure it will give you more opportunity than the next guy.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 11, 2009 17:57:14 GMT -5
... Someone who is currently poor can through education and hard work acquire wealth from others. I was about to take issue about your statement that wealth distribution is going to happen. At first blush, it read as though it meant "whether you like it or not". With your last sentence, you deftly put everything before it in perspective. One earns his way and what he earned came from someone else, whether they earned it or not. That hardly sounds like something out of the Manifesto. Well said.
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Post by lou on Mar 11, 2009 18:32:09 GMT -5
I don't think the American Dream is dead as much as incapacitated. Right now we are experiencing the failure of business, gov't., and individuals to take personal responsibility. We are seeing homeowners in foreclosure because they purchased too much house on too little salary and this can be laid directly at the thresholds of banks and mortgage lenders in their zeal for more money! Gov't failed to be the watchdog, too many in gov't see this as a lifetime of service and that means purchasing votes so Congressman X and Senator Y get re-elected ad nauseum.
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Post by jdredd on Mar 16, 2009 15:30:32 GMT -5
Which American Dream are we talking about? There have been many I believe. There was a time when the American Dream was all the free land you could work, after you killed off the Indians living there, of course. Eventually that petered out, and few people could or wanted to make a living on the farm anymore, so they went into the cities and got industrial jobs. Then came the automobile, and many folks escaped the crowded and multiracial cities for the bright and shiny white suburbs, and owning a little house (and later, BIG house) in the burbs became the American Dream (And many cities suffered for it). Neato! And then EVERYBODY wanted that little house in the burbs, so the real estate industry built like crazy. Uh-oh! Suddenly we were out of qualified buyers! What to do? Gee, we can make predatory loans to unqualified buyers! Cool! Oh gosh, now foreclosures have shot up! And we made all those side bets on those bad loans! Oh no, recession! Bummer! What now? Time to invent a NEW dream, I guess. Any ideas?
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Post by jackoliver on Mar 16, 2009 16:20:48 GMT -5
ask the indians, ancestors of Black America, and even women what did they think of the original dream? Im just glad that the majority of America has turned down the Republican American Lie/Dream. God Bless President Obama and God Bless our America
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 16, 2009 16:30:41 GMT -5
Not necessarily looking at the American Dream as possessions but the opportunity, to be what you want to be. I’ve lived and worked in a number of countries, I don’t see the drive and ambition as I see with many of Americans. The acceptance of status quo is more prevalent in socialist and communistic countries. If we are marching to socialism, then I’m afraid the dream has faded.
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Post by jackoliver on Mar 16, 2009 16:39:02 GMT -5
Will all of Americas history and growth, I do admitt our country is a leader in freedom and opportunity. In that regard I agree with CM's experience and observation.
We should all be warry of any political party blinding us of that.
That being said, I am not worried about Obama's plans. He is just trying to fix 8 years of Bush and Cheney's destruction of America and the constitution.
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Post by bruce on Mar 16, 2009 18:29:30 GMT -5
For a large number of people ,the 50's,60's and to some extent the 70's were not times of "contentment".The 60's in particular were times of much discontent.For the majority these may have been a time of contentment but I seriously doubt it.Many of us,myself included tend to view the more distant past with rose colorer glasses.I just this morning enjoyed hearing Pat Boone's weak renditions of classic music.When I thought later of the reason for them,I had second thoughts about my enjoyment.
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