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Post by daleescondido on Mar 11, 2009 16:58:27 GMT -5
Great videos, just confirmed conclusions drawn from living in san diego. I would be the first one here if I couldnt feed my family.so I blame our leadership mostly. But killing the host nation off is not a solution. We are a key player in keeping the rest of the worlkd from falling into every cruelty concieved by man on man. Arrogant yes, but at this time I see it as a truth.
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Post by bruce on Mar 11, 2009 18:30:02 GMT -5
There's a middle school about a mile south of where I live,Roosevelt.Probably 80-85% of the students are hispanic.I have had the misfortune of being on bus 7 when school lets out.The vast majority are chattering in English or spanglish.Am I to assume that they are illegal? I think not.
Numbers USA has a clear political agenda.I'm not in favor of illegal immigration.My community has been hurt greatly.But I don't like seeing anyone demonized over the issue.When Barbara Coe,a leader here in California of the anti-illegal movement refers to them as "brown turds" it gives me pause.Yes to the dems they are a potential voting block.To the Repubs they are cheap labor.
Reports of massive voting by illegals are grossly overblown.Several years ago Bob Dornan,Republican lost an election to Loretta Sanchez.He charges that massive numbers of illegals voted.He sued. He lost. After a very expensive investigation,you could count on your hands the number of illegals who voted.Most illegals avoid authorities and fear exposing their situation.They have no interest in voting.
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Post by lou on Mar 11, 2009 18:44:57 GMT -5
Dale, I am sure that most of us have seen the impact on our society from illegal immigration. Not all of us, however, interpret what we see in the same ways. The Snopes piece was interesting for a number of reasons. Someone out there wanted to paint the illegals in a far worse light than reality suggests. That is racism. You can't argue against illegal immigration effectively and credibly when this kind of rhetoric is used. On the other hand, Snopes proved that where there is smoke, there is fire. A large part of the figures were based on actual reports, studies and testimonies. Some numbers were rounded up. Some exaggerated. None were patently false. That has been a part of this country's problem. The issue is either constantly whitewashed or painted with broad brushes using only black. In other words, people are lying about it. Take LULAC, MeCHA and La Raza are incapable of telling the truth. Some Minutemen groups distort the truth (others adhere to it like stink on the situation, which is...) while certain political groups, to remain unnamed, feed off it for votes and hence don't "see" the problem. I see no evidence coming from Obama or the liberal congress that they even have a clue about it. They have, for example, chosen to restrict requiring use of E-verify by contractors who do business with the government. Frankly speaking, this is awfully fkng stupid on the part of the administration and the left. It will only do more harm to those they claim to want to champion. They can't keep promising jobs to people that need them if a certain percentage is going to go to those that don't belong here. It's even dumber that BIG BUSINESS, usually conservative, continues to hire them and cry that they can't keep their doors open if they don't. The shear idiocy of trying to justify breaking the law like this is profoundly astounding. Hell, give me a clear freeway when I want to drive to the Gas Lamp Quarter so I can drive 90 miles per hour and do my part to keep businesses open down there. We all have to stop lying about this problem and look at it realistically to fix it. Otherwise, it's going to be just another trip through a looking glass. And we ain't gonna like what we see in it from either direction. Just another footnote to Hatch's analysis, just look at the language used when describing illegals, undocumented migrant!
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Post by lou on Mar 11, 2009 18:53:26 GMT -5
Here is something to think about especially in our current economic crash: 6-7M illegals hold jobs in Construction, Janitorial & Maintenance, Food Preparation, Service & Processing, Transportation, and Agriculture. With the exception of Ag, those other jobs could be held by out-of-work Americans. 1M gang-bangers are committing 80% of the crime and young Hispanics (both legal and illegal) are 19 times more likely to be members than other ethnic groups. Turning a blind eye to this problem will only exacerbate it more. There has been no Federal agency surveying this problem and financial impact on American society.
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Post by Jack on Mar 11, 2009 19:14:00 GMT -5
Bruce,
I don't think it's fair to put Barbara Coe and her "California Coalition for Immigration Reform" in the same paragraph or the same category as NumbersUSA. She's clearly operating a racist fringe group whose actions are unfortunately used by others to falsely paint the legitimate organizations that are promoting immigration control. NumbersUSA is opposed to increased immigration no matter what the source and clearly states that their agenda does not include blaming or vilifying the immigrants.
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 11, 2009 20:14:41 GMT -5
I’m not aware of any illegal having a desire to vote, additionally none care if they are referred to as illegal immigrants or undocumented migrants. They know they are here illegally; those are terms designed to stir emotion and establish which side of the aisle you are on.
Secondly they are not cheap labor, they are convenient labor. Cheap labor is minimum wage, these guys are making $12.00-$15.00 per hour, I’m not sure what minimum wage is but I’m certain the going rate for an illegal is higher. A guy making $12.00 per hour, paid cash, and zero taxes, is what 15, 16 dollars per hour above the table?
I suspect there are many more here than estimated. The estimates are based on those that walk across the border, from my experience maybe 20% walk, most ride. I've known of many the come and go as easily as anyone.
Many of the illegals are taken advantage of but not from employers but by other illegals. Extortion is rampant, I’m proud to say I’ve assisted putting one behind bars and two others deported.
If we truly care about the illegal immigrant/undocumented migrant we would secure our boarders. That is the best protection we could provide them. If it is not for the vote and it is not for cheap labor, why don’t we do it?
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Post by bruce on Mar 11, 2009 20:31:18 GMT -5
We may not have to worry as a large number are now going home and the numbers coming up have dropped drastically.The bigger problem to me has been the "mixed" families-some citizens and some here illegally.Forcing US citizens to go to a country they've never seen.The saddest cases are adolescents who speak English and know little of Mexico or whatever country their parents are from.
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Post by nikki on Mar 12, 2009 0:37:32 GMT -5
I received this message from Susan Davis in my email: "Thank you for contacting me with your support for including the E-Verify Program in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (P.L. 111-5). It was good to hear from you, and I welcome the opportunity to respond to your comments. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was signed by the President on February 17, 2009. Although clearly much remains to be done to begin lifting the American economy out of its current recession, this is a bold new step by Congress and President Obama to change the course of our country. You may be interested to know that both government and independent reviews of the E-Verify program have shown that this program is far from effective in tracking illegal workers and has actually been shown to cause additional burden for American workers trying to get jobs. In that the recovery package was primarily a jobs bill, it was important not to add barriers to employment for American citizens. In addition, the E-Verify program's funding is tenuous at best. In fact, the previous administration sought to fund a large portion of E-Verify through the Social Security Administration. In these uncertain economic times draining dollars from this already burdened and critical safety-net would put more American seniors unduly at risk. Thank you again for being in touch. As your representative, I both need and value your input. If you are interested in receiving regular updates about what is happening in Congress, please sign up for my E-Newsletter at www.house
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 12, 2009 8:48:07 GMT -5
Nikki, the "reasons" for discontinuing E-Verify are all smoke and mirrors. The error rate is the same as the errors found in the Social Security system. That E-Verify was funded through SSA was natural in that SSN verification has been the first step in verification of identity for decades. A DHS data base would be better, but, it will take time to get it to a point of being complete and reliable. A national ID card would be necessary and so far, the politics are against it.
Going back to the I-9 is incredible stupidity. All an illegal has to do is look into an employer's eyes, lie like hell, sign their name and that is that. There will be no subsequent verification process. The employer is off the hook and the illegal has landed a job- illegally. When the letter arrives in the mail from the SSA, he simply moves on to the next job.
This is going to have ramifications that are going to be long term and far reaching. As CM pointed out, they are really typically making over minimum wage. But, they are stiil cheaper. No Workers Compensation premiums are paid. No employment taxes are paid, no health insurance is paid. An illegal is far less likely to cry foul if injured on the job and thereby bring the wrath of CalOSHA down on the employer. Add to all that the fact that you don't have to have the personnel staffing when you are paying people under the table.
In this brave new world under the Boy King Barrack, how long does anyone think that illegal status will mean substandard treatment? It is just a matter of time that the same people that displaced workers in New Orleans after Katrina will be rewarded with full rights and protections under labor laws as citizens and documented immigrants. What more evidence to we need to open our eyes to this fact than what is about to happen with detainees at Gitmo who are about to be Mirandized?
Every day, a citizen is incarcerated for this crime or that misdemeanor. People are jailed regardless of how many kids will be left without a parent. It is a sad fact, to be sure. But, since we do not consider that as an overriding mitigating circumstance in all sentencing, how is it that we can be so disproportionately compassionate towards the families of illegal aliens?
And what are we really talking about here?! Is is so terrible that a family headed by someone that breaks the law daily is sent to a neighboring country from which he came? Sorry, but, misguided compassion in this case is not helping to solve anything.
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Post by bruce on Mar 12, 2009 9:56:33 GMT -5
I mentioned Barbara Coe and now I'm told she is a persona non grata in the movement.6 or 7 years ago a guy named Glen Spencer had a Sunday show on KOGO.At first I was fooled until I checked him out.His on air presentation was very much "cleaned up".He was an outright racist ranting about brown hordes raping "our" women,etc.He's now in Arizona living near the border,I guess to be clkoser to the border. I heard an interview with someone from one of the minuteman groups who sail that it is a constant struggle to keep undesirables out of the group patrolling the border-skinheads,racists,assorted wackos.These are the types of things that make me leery of the whole movement.I'm not an activist on either side,I'm not in favor of illegal immigration and I don't care for SOME of those in the anti-illegal movement. As long as many brush all hispanics with the illegal tag,sucess will be hard to achieve.Hispanic voters went for Obama 2 to 1 because of the excesses of some "ship "em all back now" types.
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 12, 2009 10:57:49 GMT -5
The minutemen groups are making an effort to keep the rift-raft out, hats off to them. Perhaps extremist support deport them all, obviously that is not the answer. We are culpable, I’m culpable, and it would be beyond cruel to deport them. Also there is no easy answer. But to start we must secure the border and stop the flow. The collateral benefit would be reduced drug and gun trafficking. Not to mention the protection of the illegal.
Eleven years ago I met Roberto. He was a skinny kid and could not speak a lick of English. I questioned if Roberto could hold up because of his small stature but he was persistent and Roberto got a job. It did not take long to see Roberto made up for his size by working harder and longer than his peers so much so his peers got after him because Roberto made them look bad. I took notice and contacted my friend Dave owner of a fence company. When Dave first met Roberto he glanced at me with that “you gotta be kidding me” look. I nodded my head and Roberto got the job. Roberto did not change his working ways, shortly after his employment with Dave, Roberto was the supervisor of his own crew. Dave and I pitched in for Roberto to attend school where he learned English and electrician skills. A few years later Roberto managed the fence company, from bidding to ordering supplies. Roberto graduated from the local JC, got a job with the city of Irvine as an electrician. Oh by the way he was making $25.00 per hour at the fence company. Roberto is now Robert with his own family and the owner of an electrical company employing over 10 people. Robert stopped by to see me about 6 months ago, he was proud to take me out to dinner, Robert had gained a lot of weight but his smile was larger than ever. How is it possible for anyone to consider deporting Robert, Robert is here illegally.
Complexity!
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Post by Jack on Mar 12, 2009 11:56:40 GMT -5
CM, Isn't Robert (aka, Roberto) vicariously living the American dream that belongs to some other guy who's been legally waiting in line for his chance to come here? Entering the country illegally is one thing, but you've just described a lengthy series of lies, deceptions and what must be a multitude of perjured documents. I can feel compassion and some sympathy for the guy, but haven't his actions put everyone around him in some type of jeopardy? Bruce mentioned the heartbreaking scenario of family's torn apart by deportations and it appears that Robert has set himself up for just such an occurrence. If he is found out, do we then blame the law for the act of the criminal? I hope he's been busy sending money back to his country of origin and preparing to build a life there because he's only living a lie while he's here. Side note: I like your new avatar, maybe I can teach mine to move his beak.
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Post by CM on Mar 12, 2009 12:23:26 GMT -5
Jack, yup he lives a life of lies and carries documents printed at a college campus. He owns a home and like many a wallet full of credit cards. Robert came here to put a shirt on his back and food in his stomach, the oldest of 12, he was selected to support the family in Mexico, I certainly would have done the same. Robert broke the law, he knows it and he knows the potential consequences. Robert purchased a couple auto body shops in Mexico, run by his uncle. If he returns to Mexico he will return as a wealthy guy.
I do not support breaking the law, but as I said we are culpable. If a guy is here hungry I’m going to give him an opportunity to fill his belly.
How do we reward the guy that is doing it the right way? Do fine the guy that broke the law? Do we depot them all? They are here because we did nothing about it. I don’t know what the answer is.
As I said before I am a supporter of securing the border, build the fence, put the Guard on the border, what ever it takes stop the flow once and for all. When the border is secured then figure out what to do with those that are here illegally. I estimate the numbers here are 2, 3 maybe 4 times what we have been told.
It is easy to describe the problem; it is very difficult to describe the solution.
p.s. There was a lot of talk about dead horses so I made the change.
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Post by nikki on Mar 12, 2009 15:13:27 GMT -5
Hatch,
Well, said.
Jack,
Well, said.
CM,
Would I be wrong in guessing that the 10-plus jobs that Robert has created have all gone to others who are also in the country illegally?
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Post by CM on Mar 12, 2009 16:13:13 GMT -5
Niki
Robert only hires American citizens; it is his way not to draw attention or questions.
…And then there was Gustavo (Gus,) Gus is nearly opposite in every way from Robert. Taller than many at 6’1” and 10+ years older than most, his wife Isabella and two sons remained in Mexico, while Gus worked here.
Gus was a likeable guy and an average worker, when his 8 hours were up Gus was done for the day. It became annoying when he typically arrived 5 minutes late. Gus would return to Mexico every 3-4 months and stay a couple of weeks before coming back to the US. One day Gus announces he is returning unscheduled as his oldest son has a defective heart and needs surgery. About six months later I see Gus again, my first question was “how is your son?” Gus tells me the surgery went well but his son will require more surgery. Gus brought his wife and two sons here. They live in Temecula, they are here illegally. The son has had two more surgeries both in Riverside on the taxpayer’s money. Gus did not pay a dime. As word got out what Gus had done he found it hard to find work. Gus turned to drinking; his son continues free medical care, they still live in Temecula. Gus has become a leech sucking off society. It is the Gus’ of Mexico that are destroying America.
I last saw Gus about 2 years ago.
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