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Post by IrishMike on Jan 3, 2009 15:07:42 GMT -5
The ground attack has now begun.IDF has entered Gaza and the Military says this operation will be a lengthy one.Large protest are being conducted world wide to condemn Israels advance on Gaza.When does Israel have the right to defend it's citizens against the Hamas rocket attacks?I feel Israel has the obligation to it's people to put an end to Hamas aggression.Civilians were given fore warning of the imminent attack.Civilian casualties are to be expected,since Hamas hides behind the civilians as human shields.Hamas has been asking for an ass kicking for the last 8 years,hopefully Israel can oblige them.
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Post by ♥Fem Dem♥ on Jan 3, 2009 19:11:18 GMT -5
Israel's onslaught on Gaza and its inhabitants continues unabated. Today, 16 prayergoers in a mosque were massacred. In one of the most deadly strikes of the campaign, an Israeli jet fired on a mosque in the northern town of Jabaliya, killing at least 16 people among more than 200 people praying, medics and witnesses said.
Four children - two brothers, aged 10 and 12 and two cousins under 16 - were among the dead at the Ibrahim al-Maqadna mosque, medics said.
Dozens of injured were dragged from the rubble. I guess under Israeli rules of engagement, synagogues in Israel are now fair game.
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Post by ♥Fem Dem♥ on Jan 3, 2009 19:15:25 GMT -5
In case any one in the U.S. thinks it's not their concern, keep in mind that it is your tax dollars that are paying for the bombs that are murdering civilian Palestinians. Blood is on OUR hands. Meanwhile, we express horror and puzzlement whenever there is a suicide bombing, or when something like 9/11 occurs, we reap what we sow.
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Post by ♥Fem Dem♥ on Jan 3, 2009 19:32:43 GMT -5
Gaza medics say more than 463 Palestinians have been murdered by Israel - including 75 children - and 2,310 wounded. This is what you want Irish?
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 3, 2009 19:48:23 GMT -5
So now it is Israels fault for the cowards of Hamas hiding behind women and children?Where are your stats showing the deaths and destruction on the Israel side of this war?Yes,I would like to see Hamas eliminated.You see no fault by Hamas?I see a mentally deranged religion going after Israel.Palestinians voted these people into power and now must deal with the consequences.All Hamas had to do was honor a cease fire,they can't and won't.
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Post by tpfkalarry on Jan 4, 2009 13:04:47 GMT -5
Fem, Our fingerprints are all over everything. That is kind of who we are. We were left out of the last round of middle east peace talks, brokered if you remember by Syria, and our government seems to be having trouble engaging in this particular conflict. Anyone familiar with the Middle East did not need the 911 report to tell us that the ongoing dispute between Israel and the Palestinian people is still the fulcrum upon which conflicts in the entire region turn. But I am curious what you would suggest?
Obama publicly stated something to the effect that if you are being attacked you have to defend yourself. Israel has already used those quotes to justify their actions and to essentially try to frame Obama's position for him. But the question isn't whether Israel is justified in defending themselves it is more about what an "appropriate" response should look like. This is not the first time around this block for either group. Both understand that once the peacekeepers (UN, U.S., or any outside group) are in place there are no more boundary changes or avenues to alter the basic dynamics. In that respect it makes sense that Israel will want to knock out as many batteries as they can. It also makes sense for Hamas to demonstrate that Israel has killed as many non-combatants as possible for future recruitment. These are all moves that they have made before.
If you want a real change you have to:
Adress the issues in Gaza that make Hamas seem like a viable political choice. In some ways Gaza is like Afhganistan. If there was any real hope for progress in either region neither Hamas or the Taliban would seem like good choices.
Do something significant and real regarding Israel and the Palestinians. I personally think we need to move all the Palestinians into one place (that way at least Israel knows which direction the rockets are coming from). They need a real estate upgrade and they need the G-8's, Un, NATO or somebody to provide funding for infrastructure improvements to whereever they go so that they have crops or sheep or something to raise other than terror.
Cultivate communication with the political leadership of both Hamas and Hezbollah as part of the re-building. This is not appeasement it is just having someone to contact when it seems clashes are about to escalate. Arafat was no humanitarian but at least we could contact him.
Just a thought.....
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Post by Jack on Jan 4, 2009 14:26:19 GMT -5
Looks like Hamas is fighting on two fronts - the IDF and internal political foes. Hard to gain world sympathy when you start randomly shooting your political rivals in the legs. "Hamas moves on Fatah 'collaborators'" www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733155685&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFullExcerpts: The Hamas government has placed dozens of Fatah members under house arrest out of fear that they might exploit the current IDF operation to regain control of the Gaza Strip The move came amid reports that the Fatah leadership in the West Bank has instructed its followers to be ready to assume power over the Gaza Strip when and if Israel's military operation results in the removal of Hamas rule. Fatah officials in Ramallah told The Jerusalem Post that Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday. They said at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken. Wisam Abu Jalhoum, a Fatah activist from the Jabalya refugee camp, was shot in the legs by Hamas militiamen for allegedly expressing joy over the IDF air strikes on Hamas targets.
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Post by ♥Fem Dem♥ on Jan 4, 2009 15:43:52 GMT -5
So Israel is justified in what they are doing and Americans should keep quiet because Americans killed many Indians and took their land by force, thereby indirectly admitting Israel's government is committing genocide and taking someone else's land.
If we use the same rationale doesn’t this mean that we should give up on illegal immigration and allow the Mexicans to establish their promised land which is rightfully theirs and give up on fighting illegal immigration because Mexicans once owned California and inhabited it. The same also applies to Texas I suppose.
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Post by Jack Oliver on Jan 4, 2009 16:13:28 GMT -5
Israel and Hamas can both fight and leave me the fk out of it. violence begetts violence, if that is what israel wants, that is their problem.
I know it sad, but niether side is going to listen to the USA, so F them IMO.
as for texas,,,what can we do to get it out of our union? Palin and Alaska too, who needs them.
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CM
Rookie
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Post by CM on Jan 4, 2009 16:20:58 GMT -5
So Israel is justified in what they are doing and Americans should keep quiet because Americans killed many Indians and took their land by force, thereby indirectly admitting Israel's government is committing genocide and taking someone else's land. If we use the same rationale doesn’t this mean that we should give up on illegal immigration and allow the Mexicans to establish their promised land which is rightfully theirs and give up on fighting illegal immigration because Mexicans once owned California and inhabited it. The same also applies to Texas I suppose. Ummmm did you use a shoe horn for that logic? Yes, US lands left the hands of the Indians and became property the US government, however the exceptions were quite impressive. To name a few: A few decades before the French and Indian war the Iroquois invaded what is today Ohio stealing the land, enslaving many of the Ohio Indians and forcing those that remained into a sort of caste system. In the French and Indian War (fought primarily over Ohio and environs) the Ohio Indians sided with the British (and Americans) while the Iroquois sided with the French. At the conclusion the Iroquois signed away their rights both to Ohio and to any land east of the Appalachian Plateau. In the American Revolution the Iroquois sided with the British but did not sign the Treaty of Paris. Washington therefore was still at war with the Iroquois after the revolution and the Iroquois signed no treaty until they had lost nearly l their land south of Canada. While I can find no justification for American seizing the land now known as Georgia form the Creek Indians it is interesting to see how Florida came into US hands. It seems that in the early 1800’s Florida was claimed by Spain but populated mostly by Indians (Seminole and others) who, whatever good or bad they had done, never claimed Georgia to be their own and yet as they had done for (presumably) hundreds of years they constantly raided in to Georgia kidnapping people (both white and Indian) burning homes and farms (both white and Indian) and stealing anything they felt was worth hauling back to Florida. Andrew Jackson put a stop to that in 1817 by invading Florida, burning every Seminole Village he found and seizing the Spanish fort in Pensacola. Perhaps I’ve added fuel to the fire playing the off-topic game. I see little linkage in your assertion, but I’m just a male, what do I know?
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Post by Jack Oliver on Jan 4, 2009 16:40:56 GMT -5
Perhaps I’ve added fuel to the fire playing the off-topic game. I see little linkage in your assertion, but I’m just a male, what do I know? Ya, what do you know,,,your still looking for Obama's kenyan birthcertificate !!! Sorry Mark, couldnt resist !!! Israel and the Palestines....what a mess...I know some Israelies who have left israel because they cant stand the violence anymore.. IMO, there will never be peace, there is too much profit and control of countries if there is war,,not to mention higher gas prices because of the instability IMO... Israeal does have the right to deffend themselves, and if they want to make matters worse by over reacting,,than its their blood and their problem...
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VOR
banned
BANNED FOR LIFE
VOR
Posts: 294
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Post by VOR on Jan 6, 2009 16:10:27 GMT -5
Fem Dem...you are my hero!!!
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VOR
banned
BANNED FOR LIFE
VOR
Posts: 294
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Post by VOR on Jan 6, 2009 16:15:11 GMT -5
CM have you read Allan W Eckert's series of books on the French and Indian War? They are excellent!!
However, as good as you quoted past history, your recent history is lacking. Shock and Awe doesn't work in Urban Warfare. It kills the innocent and does little to destroy a culture or an ideology.
If you care about the human race, people in general, you would use mass destruction of the general public as a last resort. It is not ethical or moral. If you want total destruction at any cost, you become the same as the terrorist.
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Post by daleescondido on Jan 6, 2009 16:40:57 GMT -5
Muslims support terrorist by their silence. There are elements of their sects that are oppressed for sure. But they do nothing as they do agree with the terrorists mission statements. If they want to be taken serious and have their legitimate grievences addressed, they must separate themselves from and support efforts to end the terrorist ability to operate. If not then let them pound sand. GO JEWS.
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Post by tpfkalarry on Jan 6, 2009 20:06:35 GMT -5
Muslims support terrorist by their silence. There are elements of their sects that are oppressed for sure. But they do nothing as they do agree with the terrorists mission statements. If they want to be taken serious and have their legitimate grievences addressed, they must separate themselves from and support efforts to end the terrorist ability to operate. If not then let them pound sand. GO JEWS. To treat the moderate FATAH the same as Hamas is to turn moderates into terrorists. Does that really sound like the answer. The majority of the moderate Arab states (sunni) has yet to really denounce or challenge Israels desire to limit Hamas' ability to fire their rockets. They would like to see the area ruled by FATAH. So your plan of letting the moderates in Gaza suffer as a result of the actions of terrorists makes sense to whom?
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