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Post by tpfkalarry on Feb 3, 2009 19:50:31 GMT -5
Lou, So we won and the war is over? Does anybody else know? Do you think we should say anything?
For the record you really are sounding more and more like Lori, but I still refuse to believe you feel any differently about the loss of American lives than anyone else here.
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Post by lou on Feb 3, 2009 20:20:18 GMT -5
Lou, So we won and the war is over? Does anybody else know? Do you think we should say anything? For the record you really are sounding more and more like Lori, but I still refuse to believe you feel any differently about the loss of American lives than anyone else here. Don't worry, this will be my last response to you, Did I misunderstand your #10 post? Al-Sadr is no longer a factor and this is NOT a victory?
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Post by tpfkalarry on Feb 3, 2009 21:35:55 GMT -5
al-Sadr and his supporters are taking a beating in the provincials. We will see how shrewd he turns out to be. Remember how many people counted McCain out of the primary. The national elections will tell if he is going to gain the political power he covets or if he is going to return to being just a religious leader, and to some degree how much political power the clerics are going to hold on to. The Sadrists split their military wing from their political wing almost a year ago. This was done to help them in the elections. I guess the concern now is whether he will try to win with what is left of the militia what he could not win at the polls. The other concern is how much Iran is willing to help and what risks they are willing to take to keep their influence. He is still a factor. If he doesn't do any better than this in the national elections and his militia cannot add significant numbers of new recruits than we would be able to describe the Iraqi government as secure and stable. In these times you have to call that a win.
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VOR
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BANNED FOR LIFE
VOR
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Post by VOR on Feb 4, 2009 11:21:43 GMT -5
Hatch,
Where have you been??? It's a Republican myth that the
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VOR
banned
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VOR
Posts: 294
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Post by VOR on Feb 4, 2009 11:29:54 GMT -5
Let me finish...its a Republican myth that the Clinton Administration wanted or warned the Bush administration to go to war In Iraq. Its also highly proven that the propaganda and other information availiable to Congress was good. Remember Bush's yellow cake argument during the State of the Union which since has been proved he knew was a lie.
Bush it has also been proven had us on track to attack Iraq from his first day in office. Whatever his payback reason we all, as a country see that it was a waste and mistake so say the majority of Americans. I wonder how many who don't believe it was a mistake listen to Conservative hate radio and watch Fix News.
Facts are facts and MOST Americans believe the war in Iraq was a huge mistake. I wouldn't sacrifice any American lives so that another country can vote in an election. We have watched as the results of the elections we are allowing are voting in Hamas and anti- American politicians.
No, Iraq was a quagmire and a disaster and has enabled Iran's power to go unmatched in the Middle East.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Feb 4, 2009 14:57:41 GMT -5
OK. Finished? VOR, the main point about my post was to point out that Americans don't like even one casualty in Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere. I most certainly would not insult your intelligence by saying that YOU do in any way shape or form, regardless of your politics or points of view. I hope you understand me on this. Regarding history, perhaps this link may be of use. www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp If you will, notice the progression of thought in Washington.
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Post by jackoliver on Feb 4, 2009 15:01:10 GMT -5
those that do not admit that Iraq at best was a HUGE mistake, has american and Iraqi blood on their hands.
those that do not admit that Iraq at worst was a HUGE LIE, have american and Iraqi blood on their hands.
PERIOD>>>you can rationalize your little republican, hypocritical values all you want.
I hope there is a GOD just for you folks...
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Post by Jack on Feb 4, 2009 16:31:47 GMT -5
those that do not admit that Iraq at best was a HUGE mistake, has american and Iraqi blood on their hands. those that do not admit that Iraq at worst was a HUGE LIE, have american and Iraqi blood on their hands. PERIOD>>>you can rationalize your little republican, hypocritical values all you want. I hope there is a GOD just for you folks... Jack Oliver, Please re-read your irrational comment and consider all the military, government and civilian people around the world that you have just accused of having "American and Iraqi blood on their hands". In my opinion, with this latest sanctimonious ranting, you have finally "Jumped the Shark".
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Post by jackoliver on Feb 4, 2009 17:47:01 GMT -5
Jack
the Iraq war was a lie or mistake about WWMD's PERIOD.
That wat the rational that sold it to our country..
ANYTHING ELSE IS TRYING TO CHANGE HISTORY AND BEING A BUSH APPOLOGIST...
TRY JUMPING OFF THAT SHARK, CALLED THE TRUTH..
YOU ARE LOOKING FOR OTHER EXCUSES TO MAKE YOUR MISTAKES RATIONAL...
You dont fool me, or the rest of America who voted for Obama...SORRY>>>
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Post by tpfkalarry on Feb 4, 2009 23:14:06 GMT -5
What is Best...
I have shared a thousand opinions about this conflict. I could share a thousand more. I am not a middle eastern expert but I know what I know. The discussion about what the previous administration should or shouldn't have done is academic and rather historical and has relevance more in terms of the political capital it made or cost. But the discussion about strategy and what we should do is really a different conversation. Clearly Obama wants to restore some kind of moral compass to our foreign policy. That is an excellent ideal. But I think even he knows that there are times when the US's long term interests in a region do not always go hand in hand with those of the inhabitants of that region.
Troops, at least in the hands of military commanders, are sometimes looked at as assets that are measured often in a cost benefit analysis. How many troops will it cost to take that hill and what is the hill worth. The troops and their familes naturally do not always agree with the values assigned.
The goal of a stable semi-democratic Iraq that is somewhat autonomous of Iran is highly desirable. But what would it cost? Since we have already borne a good portion (hopefully) of that cost the question is how much more it would cost and would that additional cost be worth it to us strategically.
Based on the resurgence of Iraqi nationalism, evident in their rejecting the political group with the strongest ties to Iran, kind of re-writes the equation. It at least has changed what I thought existed in the hearts and minds of Iraqis especially those in the south. The al-Malaki government that seemed so shaky just a year or so ago, now seems to be winning the hearts and minds of a large cross section of that country. It no longer appears to be a country that could easily have been divided into three pieces, and now looks like a country that has a fighting chance.
So I guess the question is how much more would it take to ensure the current trends in Iraq continue and is it worth it to our long term interests in that region. I say this simply as a thought about US long term strategic interests in the region, without any concern that leaving would be an admission of defeat and be a blow to our ego. Would a moderate shia state be able to ally with other moderate states that are sunni and provide a counter to the extremists. Is it worth the extra months or year that it might take.
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Post by Retired in CV on Feb 5, 2009 2:01:19 GMT -5
Larry, you and I have discussed Iraq quite often in the past and we always came down to the same issue, it depends on what Iraqi's do. Well it seems that the page as turned as you have stated. I agree that there is no rush to immediately leave. That doesn't mean that some sort of reduction might be appropriate. Obama has staked out a time table and it is his to use. Along with the elections and recommendations from the Commanders, I believe he will make the right decision. I believe that he won't be in such a hurry to remove all the troops, but will monitor the situation as you stated. The elections were very good news for us and especially for the Iraqi people. The government there gets stronger every day we are there, yet, I believe that Obama should not extend beyond the time table he has. As for those who attack Lou by saying she supports Bush's "stay the course", I have not read anything from her stating such. At best she just stated that immediate removal of troops as per the "Professor" was not the answer. I believe her comments agree with the assessment by Larry. I could be wrong about the agreeing with Larry though.
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Post by Retired in CV on Feb 5, 2009 2:23:49 GMT -5
,,,,my military family has NO RESPECT FOR BUSH REPUBLICANS>>>NONE>>> They have called them SCUM of the EARTH>..that is their hard EARNED OPINION by serving our country... That is an interesting comment, "their hard EARNED OPINION". Does that mean that you did not serve in the Armed Forces like VOR, Larry, myself and others? I suppose that you support the Military, EXCEPT all those BUSH REPUBLICANS who volunteered to serve KNOWING & EXPECTING that they were going into harms way. I suppose that each one that died or saved the live of a liberal are just the SCUM OF THE EARTH! After all, NO RESPECT MEANS NO RESPECT.Your comments are so direct that you put everything on the table for us to see the real you. I have a hard time believing it, but I you made the comment! Even EscapeHatch commented on your direct comments about someone actually LIKING the idea of the deaths our troops have suffered. I would never put that tag on any other blogger regardless of the difference in political views (unless the blogger is a real radical who actually states that they enjoy the idea). I don't need to associate myself with such a low slam just to win an argument.
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Post by Retired in CV on Feb 5, 2009 2:33:31 GMT -5
You might want to put this on your calendar if you are going to be home in the evening. HBO film "Taking Chance" scheduled to air Feb 21 I have been given a "heads up" regarding this film and understand it will be well worth our time to watch it. Great trailer. It appears Hollywood has finally made one for those who give us our freedom. Trailer of the movie is included: Link to the film clip: www.hbo.com/events/takingchance/Subject: HBO film, "Taking Chance" scheduled to air Feb 21 HBO will broadcast the film, "Taking Chance" , on Sat, Feb 21, 2009, at 8 pm. ** For those that don't have HBO, it will be available on DVD in several months. Mr Secretary and Chief - We want to provide information on a project the Air Force supported with the Marines as the lead that is about to be released. The HBO film "Taking Chance," starring Kevin Bacon, will have a world premier Jan 16, 2009, at the Sundance Film Festival(Park City,Utah). It received the prestigious honor of being selected for the festival's "Dramatic Competition." The Air Force assisted HBO Films and our U.S. Marine Corps colleagues in LA with on-location filming in July at McGuire AFB, NJ (standing in for Dover AFB). HBO has posted a preview clip of the movie which includes brief interior/exterior scenes of a C-17 filmed at McGuire AFB with assistance from personnel from the Dover AFB, Mortuary Affairs offices.
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CM
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Post by CM on Feb 5, 2009 15:58:58 GMT -5
I would not regard pulling out of Iraq as defeat if it were today or 5 years from now. We can lead the Iraqi people to freedom but we can not make them drink from the cup of democracy. I want to share Larry’s optimisms, I can not.
Tired, I agree with your assessment of Jack Oliver’s comment. I would add I found it insulting to those that HAVE (me included) served.
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Post by jackoliver on Feb 5, 2009 16:06:31 GMT -5
If you feel insulted because you believe bush's lying Iraq war, that is your problem...sorry. My military family as well as the majority of america feel otherwise...sorry... you are in the minority ,,,,sorry.... and this is not a military, non military issue, it is believing a lie or holding liars accountable...sorry... it is not about me,,that is how people like you folks rationalize believing lies,,,by blamming others, or changing the focus of the topic....sorry.....
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