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Post by nikki on Mar 12, 2009 17:41:55 GMT -5
I'm confused. Robert is here illegally. He starts his own business, buys a house, receives credit cards; all with false documents.
How does Robert know that his employees are all American citizens?
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CM
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Post by CM on Mar 12, 2009 18:01:59 GMT -5
I don’t know the details, I’m related a story from an aerial view. The documents began as false but one document breeds another and sooner than later they all become valid. Robert did marry a Hispanic American and has two kids, lives in a million dollar home in Irvine, and drives a new Yukon Denali.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 12, 2009 18:14:39 GMT -5
I don't condone using racial slurs toward hispanics. I condemn it. I also strongly dislike anyone lumping hispanics in general with illegals.
I have stumped, even with Minutemen, that Mexicans in particular have been a part of our social fabric since before California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas were even part of the Union. California wouldn't be California without the Mexican cultural influence. We, as Californians, share something that is hard to understand in a great many other states: Spice.
Sure, spice in Mexican food is a sine qua non. It is also part of our music, our way of life, our architecture and so many aspects of who we are. Margaritas anyone? And we love it.
I am speaking mainly about Mexicans because they, more than any other group are more a part of us. We must never turn away from that aspect of our unique culture. Nor should we insult it.
Does anyone here have an "abuela"? I am sure some of us do. An older woman that kind of adopts you into her family. Abuela is an endearing term for grandmother. In her you can feel the comfort that comes from a rich heritage built on family. How can one not love their abuela?
But, we do have those that see "them messicans" as a part of our society to be excised out. They that do are the ones we can do without. Sure, I've met some that affiliate themselves with Minutemen. Sure wish I didn't.
But, they tend to keep their mouths shut when being addressed by Minutemen and women that happen to be of Mexican decent. That kind of takes the wind out of their sails... or hot air out of their hate-filled rhetoric.
In April, my family will be merging with a a family of Mexican decent. I've written about my son and his fiance before. It is going to happen. Really!! Hell, if it didn't, my son was facing losing a most wonderful young woman. I love her dearly.
She is just the second American of Mexican decent to marry into our family. My nephew also found another beauty a few years ago. Man! What a reception! We are all proud. Their kids are as cute as they come.
Bruce, I believe you said that in the interview of a Minuteman, he said that "it is a constant struggle to keep undesirables out of the group patrolling the border-skinheads,racists,assorted wackos." Yes, it is. It is a sad fact of life.
But, on the other side, there are those racists and assorted wackos that want US out of their territory. These are the same people that get in the way of those that want to see that our laws are enforced. And they do so violently at times, with real hatred in their hearts.
One does not excuse the other. It just means that the whole issue becomes more clouded by influences that really have nothing to do with what we are paying for and enduring.
This came out very clearly in the elections. To say that hispanics voted 2 to 1 for Obama against McCain meant to me that the influence of such groups like LaRaza was too great. Remember, it was John McCain that co-authored and sponsored the Immigration Reform Act that would have given amnesty to millions. Obama probably only voted present. McCain is on record for being an illegal's advocate.
Obama, on the other hand, is only now coming out, against his published campaign stance, as just another liberal looking to buy votes in 2012.
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Post by bruce on Mar 12, 2009 18:23:22 GMT -5
CM,a wonderful story of Robert/Roberto.It would be absurd to send a contributing member of society packing.You are absolutely correct that it is easy to define the problem,but the solution is much more difficult.
As for Numbers USA,Roy Beck of Numbers USA has a close association with one John Tanton.There is way too much information to post here but I suggest anyone who quotes Numbers USA.Suffice it to say Mr. Tanton is a long time nativist and a notorious anti-semite.
Lastly,the story put out by Hedgecock,Michele Maltin,Rush and numerous others that 5 million illegals bought homes with no questions asked and no documents is a complete fabrication.Lou Dobbs even took up the gauntlet.They claimed that the government,the CRA,forced banks to give mortgages to unqualified people.This is false.The CRA states that mortgages must be issued"in a manner consistent with safe and sound banking practices".The majority of the bad loans were made by greedy mortgage lenders not by banks.The CRA has no say-so over the mortgage lenders.The claim that these ficticious 5 million illegals were responsible for the housing meltdown is a vicious lie to place the blame on illegals.It is true that one can get a CRA approved loan without a social security number;you must then have a tax ID number and a history of steady and significant income to qualify.
As long as some anti-illegal activists and spokes people find the need to spread falsehoods to make their point,I'm keeping my distance.
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 12, 2009 18:39:57 GMT -5
There was a time when the "banks" required proof of income in the form of tax returns before loaning the money. CRA changed that. The mortgage brokers were told that they did not need to push for solid evidence of income.
This was from a Bank of America executive- from his lips to my ears.
Washington Mutual loan processors were told that all they needed was a tax return from the borrower. If the underwriter turned the borrower down, the processor was asked to get the borrower to simply lie about their income as being augmented from other sources.
This was from my daughter, a loan processor for WAMU for a couple of years.
Phony income statements are common.
This is from my uncle, a real estate broker in Tulsa, Ok.
Of course, redlining took on a whole new meaning.
Greedy lenders exist. Nothing new there. That doesn't cover up the truth about what shook out of CRA.
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Post by Jack on Mar 12, 2009 18:45:57 GMT -5
As for Numbers USA,Roy Beck of Numbers USA has a close association with one John Tanton.There is way too much information to post here but I suggest anyone who quotes Numbers USA.Suffice it to say Mr. Tanton is a long time nativist and a notorious anti-semite. ............. As long as some anti-illegal activists and spokes people find the need to spread falsehoods to make their point,I'm keeping my distance. Bruce, I guess some feel that conservatives and republicans are the only ones who can be charged with "guilt by association". I don't think that I'll try to find the truth about immigration reform by checking with La Raza. I'd still rather side with "anti-illegal activists" than "pro-illegal activists".
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Post by lou on Mar 12, 2009 19:02:34 GMT -5
I’m not aware of any illegal having a desire to vote, additionally none care if they are referred to as illegal immigrants or undocumented migrants. They know they are here illegally; those are terms designed to stir emotion and establish which side of the aisle you are on. Secondly they are not cheap labor, they are convenient labor. Cheap labor is minimum wage, these guys are making $12.00-$15.00 per hour, I’m not sure what minimum wage is but I’m certain the going rate for an illegal is higher. A guy making $12.00 per hour, paid cash, and zero taxes, is what 15, 16 dollars per hour above the table? I suspect there are many more here than estimated. The estimates are based on those that walk across the border, from my experience maybe 20% walk, most ride. I've known of many the come and go as easily as anyone. Many of the illegals are taken advantage of but not from employers but by other illegals. Extortion is rampant, I’m proud to say I’ve assisted putting one behind bars and two others deported. If we truly care about the illegal immigrant/undocumented migrant we would secure our boarders. That is the best protection we could provide them. If it is not for the vote and it is not for cheap labor, why don’t we do it? CM, I am sure there are some earning $12-15 an hr.; but, there are others (I think a majority) who are earning less. I also think, based on a friend who works for LaRaza, that many want to vote when they settle, buy a home, children in school, vacation, etc., the problem remains they are illegal entrants into the country. They become a burden even though some may pay property taxes and, perhaps, income tax. Here in SD county most of the illegals pay nothing and have tapped into the public services which taxpayers support! I agree we need to secure our borders.
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Post by nikki on Mar 12, 2009 19:03:09 GMT -5
Sorry for asking for the details. I am quite pleased to hear that Roberto, who when this story began was a poor, skinny, hard-working illegal immigrant just looking for a way to feed his family, now owns a million-dollar home in Irvine and drives a Yukon Denali (whatever the heck that is) all with false documents. And if he were to get deported (unlikely), he can just desolve all his debt here and go back to Mexico where he has yet another home and another business awaiting.
I'm going to be personna non grata here quickly, arent' I? But I have to say that I think it was Gene who several years back warned us about what might happen about illegal immigration and jobs and services and the subsequent potential for violence if and when we had a big downturn in our economy. Gee, I think Hatch and I also chimed in a bit about that.
Let's hope it does not get to that point.
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Post by lou on Mar 12, 2009 19:05:16 GMT -5
I received this message from Susan Davis in my email: "Thank you for contacting me with your support for including the E-Verify Program in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (P.L. 111-5). It was good to hear from you, and I welcome the opportunity to respond to your comments. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 was signed by the President on February 17, 2009. Although clearly much remains to be done to begin lifting the American economy out of its current recession, this is a bold new step by Congress and President Obama to change the course of our country. You may be interested to know that both government and independent reviews of the E-Verify program have shown that this program is far from effective in tracking illegal workers and has actually been shown to cause additional burden for American workers trying to get jobs. In that the recovery package was primarily a jobs bill, it was important not to add barriers to employment for American citizens. In addition, the E-Verify program's funding is tenuous at best. In fact, the previous administration sought to fund a large portion of E-Verify through the Social Security Administration. In these uncertain economic times draining dollars from this already burdened and critical safety-net would put more American seniors unduly at risk. Thank you again for being in touch. As your representative, I both need and value your input. If you are interested in receiving regular updates about what is happening in Congress, please sign up for my E-Newsletter at www.houseNikki, are you surprised? I am sure E-Verify "terrifies" the American worker and/or the LEGAL immigrant!
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Post by Jack on Mar 12, 2009 19:08:39 GMT -5
PAM (nikki), Check out the chat room here. Go there between 5:00 and 6:00 - some of us show up there around that time. It's nice b/c the comments disappear after we leave.
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Post by lou on Mar 12, 2009 19:12:35 GMT -5
Nikki, the "reasons" for discontinuing E-Verify are all smoke and mirrors. The error rate is the same as the errors found in the Social Security system. That E-Verify was funded through SSA was natural in that SSN verification has been the first step in verification of identity for decades. A DHS data base would be better, but, it will take time to get it to a point of being complete and reliable. A national ID card would be necessary and so far, the politics are against it. Going back to the I-9 is incredible stupidity. All an illegal has to do is look into an employer's eyes, lie like hell, sign their name and that is that. There will be no subsequent verification process. The employer is off the hook and the illegal has landed a job- illegally. When the letter arrives in the mail from the SSA, he simply moves on to the next job. This is going to have ramifications that are going to be long term and far reaching. As CM pointed out, they are really typically making over minimum wage. But, they are stiil cheaper. No Workers Compensation premiums are paid. No employment taxes are paid, no health insurance is paid. An illegal is far less likely to cry foul if injured on the job and thereby bring the wrath of CalOSHA down on the employer. Add to all that the fact that you don't have to have the personnel staffing when you are paying people under the table. In this brave new world under the Boy King Barrack, how long does anyone think that illegal status will mean substandard treatment? It is just a matter of time that the same people that displaced workers in New Orleans after Katrina will be rewarded with full rights and protections under labor laws as citizens and documented immigrants. What more evidence to we need to open our eyes to this fact than what is about to happen with detainees at Gitmo who are about to be Mirandized? Every day, a citizen is incarcerated for this crime or that misdemeanor. People are jailed regardless of how many kids will be left without a parent. It is a sad fact, to be sure. But, since we do not consider that as an overriding mitigating circumstance in all sentencing, how is it that we can be so disproportionately compassionate towards the families of illegal aliens? And what are we really talking about here?! Is is so terrible that a family headed by someone that breaks the law daily is sent to a neighboring country from which he came? Sorry, but, misguided compassion in this case is not helping to solve anything. Well said! I think the fools, led by the Boy King, see the coming illegals as potential dems, once they have been given the "rigorous" scrutiny along the same lines as the Boy King's hangers on vetted his Cabinet choices, and they will do anything to stay in power!
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Post by EscapeHatch on Mar 12, 2009 19:12:54 GMT -5
Nikki, the violence has been brewing for some time, I think. Look at Los Angeles. Drug violence is just what makes the news. Gangland violence is too common place to remain too much in vogue.
It has been said that illegals are leaving the country in large numbers. Well, it is true that they are leaving places like Arizona where tougher laws are in place. But, many do not head south. They head west. California.
On Quince Street, between 5th and Valley Parkway, the numbers have swelled considerably. I don't suppose it matters if they are fresh over the border or are transplants from other states. The numbers are growing. I drive down Quince every single work day to work.
While I am not concerned about violence, I do think they ought to police their own trash. A business owner resorted to placing a large 55 gallon open top drum for trash where they frequently wait for a pick up. It is always overflowing. You'd think that at least someone would say to their self "I ought to empty this for the nice person that left it out here for our use".
Nope.
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CM
Rookie
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Post by CM on Mar 12, 2009 19:16:08 GMT -5
Niki, It is what it is. Robert came here illegally, that is a given, never did he suck off society as many do. I’m not excusing what he did any more than I would make an excuse to the cop that pulls me over and says “do you know you were driving 75 in a 65.” If we as a country are going to permit illegal immigrants to enter, I would rather a Robert than a Gus.
I can not speak to the majority of illegals, my experiences are personal over an 11 year span. I see these guys daily, I provide food to the food banks, my contact is limited. The good ones earn the bucks.
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Post by lou on Mar 12, 2009 19:19:48 GMT -5
The minutemen groups are making an effort to keep the rift-raft out, hats off to them. Perhaps extremist support deport them all, obviously that is not the answer. We are culpable, I’m culpable, and it would be beyond cruel to deport them. Also there is no easy answer. But to start we must secure the border and stop the flow. The collateral benefit would be reduced drug and gun trafficking. Not to mention the protection of the illegal. Eleven years ago I met Roberto. He was a skinny kid and could not speak a lick of English. I questioned if Roberto could hold up because of his small stature but he was persistent and Roberto got a job. It did not take long to see Roberto made up for his size by working harder and longer than his peers so much so his peers got after him because Roberto made them look bad. I took notice and contacted my friend Dave owner of a fence company. When Dave first met Roberto he glanced at me with that “you gotta be kidding me” look. I nodded my head and Roberto got the job. Roberto did not change his working ways, shortly after his employment with Dave, Roberto was the supervisor of his own crew. Dave and I pitched in for Roberto to attend school where he learned English and electrician skills. A few years later Roberto managed the fence company, from bidding to ordering supplies. Roberto graduated from the local JC, got a job with the city of Irvine as an electrician. Oh by the way he was making $25.00 per hour at the fence company. Roberto is now Robert with his own family and the owner of an electrical company employing over 10 people. Robert stopped by to see me about 6 months ago, he was proud to take me out to dinner, Robert had gained a lot of weight but his smile was larger than ever. How is it possible for anyone to consider deporting Robert, Robert is here illegally. Complexity! CM, hasn't Robert/Roberto lied though? Hasn't he displaced a LEGAL immigrant waiting patiently in line for his turn at the American dream? Also why hasn't Robert/Roberto filed for citizenship that way he can become legal.
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Post by bruce on Mar 12, 2009 19:32:16 GMT -5
Lou-be careful about calling the president a boy,I'm watching you!!(Just kidding) I suspect you meant it in a harmless way.
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