ralphie
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My Hero Condoleezza Rice
Posts: 12
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Post by ralphie on Jul 13, 2009 18:15:33 GMT -5
Did the CIA lie?
They probably did. Then again, maybe not. Then again, maybe they had no choice. Then again, maybe they did. Then again, maybe they should always lie to Congress because Congress can't keep a secret. Then again, maybe they should always tell Congress the truth and if the info gets out, as it most likely will, and it harms our national security then so what, at least they didn't lie to Congress.
Maybe it is time everybody grew up and pulled their heads out of the asses.
The CIA should not lie to Congress as Congress has the responsibility to oversee the CIA. There must be accountability by the CIA and the operations they are running. Having said that there must be accountability by the Congress too.
You cannot expect the CIA to be forthcoming on information and operational procedures to a Congress that can't keep secrets.
If we are to hold the CIA accountable for failing to disclose information to Congress then we absolutely must hold Congress accountable for their leaking of national secrets. And I don't mean just publicly spanking Congress. I mean there should be prosecutions of members of Congress that reveal our intelligence secrets and operations. These people should be charged with treason and immediately jailed and removed from office. NO EXCEPTIONS.
We cannot threaten to criminally charge members of the CIA if we are not willing to do the same to members of Congress. There is no excuse whatsoever to reveal national secrets and operational procedures and place our covert agents and assets in jeopardy. NONE WHATSOEVER.
Any member of Congress that reveals information that results in the loss of one of our agents or assets should face the death penalty.
ONLY, after we hold Congress accountable can we hold our Intelligence Agencies accountable and not before.
I am all for oversight but not at the risk of the folks we ask to go into harms way on our behalf.
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Post by johng on Jul 13, 2009 18:23:15 GMT -5
Very Well said and honest in the content!
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Post by jdredd on Jul 13, 2009 18:35:27 GMT -5
I don't see politics quite as you do, ralphie. The CIA works for us, and the Congress is our elected representatives. I want my representative to be able to decide what should or should not be kept secret, not some CIA tool. In fact, if they get any further out of hand maybe we should close their doors and get a new, less arrogant intelligence agency. I'm calling Barry...
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Post by same guest on Jul 13, 2009 18:42:36 GMT -5
We have a civilian control of our government. This is sacrosanct. This is not to be violated, period.
There may be [detail] things which may not be told to congress, but clear, abstract accounting must absolutely factual. If there are rogue agents or bands of agents who commit illegal &/or counter policy actions these must at least be abstractly reported, & those agents held to account.
Lying to congress is treason. It is a capital offense.
Stop the treachery. Stop the treason. Hold the CIA to full accountability.
If this is not possible the entire agency should be cashiered & be replaced with something that is accountable & law & policy abiding.
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Post by johng on Jul 13, 2009 18:50:01 GMT -5
I can agree to that if you include Congress in the same level of accountability. Better yet just push the delete button on both and start over!
I might offer, both organizations have a proven tendency to lie and string the people along - if we are bickering over the "value of who's lie is more significant" then the whole discussion is moot!
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Post by jdredd on Jul 13, 2009 18:50:02 GMT -5
I wouldn't go so far as to say lying to Congress is treason or a capital offense. Plotting secession is, though. Except in Texas.
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ralphie
Rookie
My Hero Condoleezza Rice
Posts: 12
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Post by ralphie on Jul 13, 2009 18:53:01 GMT -5
If we are going to expect the CIA to be fully accountable to the Congress then the Congress has to be fully accountable when they leak secrets.
If we are going to roll CIA heads down the aisle then we better be willing to roll a few heads from the Congress down the aisle with them.
The CIA guys are involved in dangerous work, they can't afford a Congress that leaks details of operations and such. The way our politics work it becomes a matter of survival, the physical survival of our agents and Congress doesn't seem to realize it or care. Could you blame them for not telling Congress everything or not giving them all the nitty gritty little details? They can't trust the Congress of the United States and neither can we.
I'm just saying that it is a two way street. Expect the CIA to tell Congress the truth but expect Congress to protect our secrets and hold both institutions accountable for their actions or lack of.
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Post by Jack on Jul 13, 2009 18:57:15 GMT -5
If we are going to expect the CIA to be fully accountable to the Congress then the Congress has to be fully accountable when they leak secrets. If we are going to roll CIA heads down the aisle then we better be willing to roll a few heads from the Congress down the aisle with them. The CIA guys are involved in dangerous work, they can't afford a Congress that leaks details of operations and such. The way our politics work it becomes a matter of survival, the physical survival of our agents and Congress doesn't seem to realize it or care. Could you blame them for not telling Congress everything or not giving them all the nitty gritty little details? They can't trust the Congress of the United States and neither can we. I'm just saying that it is a two way street. Expect the CIA to tell Congress the truth but expect Congress to protect our secrets and hold both institutions accountable for their actions or lack of. Bingo! I totally agree. Welcome aboard. Jack
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Post by johng on Jul 13, 2009 19:03:36 GMT -5
I wouldn't go so far as to say lying to Congress is treason or a capital offense. Plotting secession is, though. Except in Texas. You must be feeling a bit better my friend, you are taking shots at absent players
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Post by Tired in CV on Jul 13, 2009 19:13:43 GMT -5
Pelosi's favorability is in the tank since she went after the CIA. This is the kind of DC political damage control that puts our secuity at risk. It is time to start culling the herde of these political baspersons! Culling Pelosi isn't going to happen! With the gerrymandered districts, Pelosi is in the MOST SECURE DEMOCRAT district in the state. She will win even without support from the party. The only way she will lose is if she dies! Not wishing death on anyone, unlike some on this blog, but I will mark it as a milestone when she is gone. I only worry that Mayor Gavin Newsom will run for the seat if he doesn't become governor. THAT is a scary idea!
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Post by Jack on Jul 13, 2009 19:34:52 GMT -5
Pelosi's favorability is in the tank since she went after the CIA. This is the kind of DC political damage control that puts our secuity at risk. It is time to start culling the herde of these political baspersons! Culling Pelosi isn't going to happen! With the gerrymandered districts, Pelosi is in the MOST SECURE DEMOCRAT district in the state. She will win even without support from the party. The only way she will lose is if she dies! Not wishing death on anyone, unlike some on this blog, but I will mark it as a milestone when she is gone. I only worry that Mayor Gavin Newsom will run for the seat if he doesn't become governor. THAT is a scary idea! They didn't even have to do much of a gerrymander job on her district. All the whack job libs were clustered together in one lump - they just drew a box around them.
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ralphie
Rookie
My Hero Condoleezza Rice
Posts: 12
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Post by ralphie on Jul 14, 2009 8:28:23 GMT -5
We the people don't need to know everything our intelligence agencies are doing but if Congress is going to oversee their operations and concur with what they are doing, on our behalf, than it is incumbent on Congress to shut the hell up about what is going on and quit telling the whole world, especially our enemies.
But let's also remember that the CIA is not in the business of being "nice guys". We ask them to do things no one else is willing to do. We ask them to go to other countries, on our behalf, and steal their secrets and infiltrate their governments. All of which is illegal in the countries we send them to. It is an organization we set up to commit illegal acts all around the world on our behalf. They are not a Law Enforcement Agency, they are spies.
The very nature of their existence requires they be "bad boys and girls" sometimes. It is just the way it is in this world. Some of the stuff they have to do at times can't be discussed over breakfast, it would just bring your breakfast back up.
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Post by lou on Jul 14, 2009 10:35:57 GMT -5
Ralphie, well said! Unfortunately, this group of clowns, the Congress, consider themselves above the law and, of course, accountability is out of the question! Witness Princess Pelosi and her lies!
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Post by johng on Jul 14, 2009 13:51:23 GMT -5
Pelosi's favorability is in the tank since she went after the CIA. This is the kind of DC political damage control that puts our secuity at risk. It is time to start culling the herde of these political baspersons! Culling Pelosi isn't going to happen! With the gerrymandered districts, Pelosi is in the MOST SECURE DEMOCRAT district in the state. She will win even without support from the party. The only way she will lose is if she dies! Not wishing death on anyone, unlike some on this blog, but I will mark it as a milestone when she is gone. I only worry that Mayor Gavin Newsom will run for the seat if he doesn't become governor. THAT is a scary idea! Only fitting to have a "Queen for a Queen".. The Fruits and Flakes depend on the Nuts!
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Post by jdredd on Jul 14, 2009 14:14:28 GMT -5
We the people don't need to know everything our intelligence agencies are doing but if Congress is going to oversee their operations and concur with what they are doing, on our behalf, than it is incumbent on Congress to shut the hell up about what is going on and quit telling the whole world, especially our enemies. But let's also remember that the CIA is not in the business of being "nice guys". We ask them to do things no one else is willing to do. We ask them to go to other countries, on our behalf, and steal their secrets and infiltrate their governments. All of which is illegal in the countries we send them to. It is an organization we set up to commit illegal acts all around the world on our behalf. They are not a Law Enforcement Agency, they are spies. The very nature of their existence requires they be "bad boys and girls" sometimes. It is just the way it is in this world. Some of the stuff they have to do at times can't be discussed over breakfast, it would just bring your breakfast back up. Once again, I have to disagree on the role of the CIA in a democracy built on the rule of law. We have come to take as a given, despite our claims to be a moral nation, that having agents committing crimes overseas is necessary. I may be an idealist and lack pragmatism, but I would never allow crimes to be committed in our name if I had the power to stop it. The Gestapo and the KGB justified their actions in much the same way, that any means is necessary for their ends. I will go to my grave telling the world that a crime is a crime no matter who does it, and criminals of any ilk should be brought to justice.
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